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How will we verify photos and videos without dissolving in to endless speculation? I’m genuinely asking as this is something I’ve been worried about for a while

How will we verify photos and videos without dissolving in to endless speculation? I’m genuinely asking as this is something I’ve been worried about for a while. The only thing I can think of is storing a hash or “phash” with a trusted third party that can then be used to later verify which image is the original. For video, store the hash/phash of the frames with timestamps. But would that even work? How do you back-verify that something was captured at a specific time when the device was offline during capture?

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
No, that would not work. You can apply a filter and immediately after compute a hash. For now, the fake pictures are rather easy to spot to a trained eye.
- joshspankit 3y ago
  > You can apply a filter and immediately after compute a hash. Can you expand on that? I’m not sure what wouldn’t work
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
    >> For video, store the hash/phash of the frames with timestamps. But would that even work? That would not work, because how do you prove that hash has been computed before video manipulation? Already, the imaging chips do some processing, so you never get the original raw image from the CMOS sensor.
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
    >> For video, store the hash/phash of the frames with timestamps. But would that even work? That would not work, because how do you prove that hash has been computed before video manipulation? Already, the imaging chips do some processing, so you never get the true raw image from the CMOS sensor.
    - joshspankit 3y ago
      Yes, I agree. I don’t think that method could be used if the manipulator was the person taking the photo or the one doing the initial processing. I’m (personally) less concerned about the true raw image vs lossy compression (i.e. JPG), and more concerned with things like the OP where an existing image was changed to show detainees smiling and that image was then used to manipulate the public. The way it is now, it could easily have turned in to a “he said, she said” situation with each side claiming that their pic is the real one and the other’s was manipulated. In a case like that we could (theoretically) look back in the record to see which hash was recorded first.
kevincox 3y ago
You can't. All photos may be fake or manipulated. You can't trust a photo. You need to decide if you trust those who are vouching for a particular photo.
- joshspankit 3y ago
  Imagine for example that you’re a high-ranking politician. You have staff and PR departments and the whole entourage. You take photos regularly and you want those photos to be public to keep building your brand. It’s just a fact that the public won’t fully trust you if there’s a smear campaign, but you have the originals of everything and that’s very powerful if the public can validate them as original. I’m sure we already have the technology needed to build the tools do that validation, I just don’t know what the winning choices are yet.
tacocataco 3y ago
Stop trying to verify photos and ask the people that were there when the photo was taken?
- joshspankit 3y ago
  I don’t think that’s going to be enough. How do you verify that it’s them who is responding, or that they are not being coerced? (before anyone comments, yes I know I’m taking this to the extreme, but if we handle the extreme cases we handle the easier ones too)

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago

No, that would not work. You can apply a filter and immediately after compute a hash. For now, the fake pictures are rather easy to spot to a trained eye.

joshspankit 3y ago
> You can apply a filter and immediately after compute a hash. Can you expand on that? I’m not sure what wouldn’t work
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
  >> For video, store the hash/phash of the frames with timestamps. But would that even work? That would not work, because how do you prove that hash has been computed before video manipulation? Already, the imaging chips do some processing, so you never get the original raw image from the CMOS sensor.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
  >> For video, store the hash/phash of the frames with timestamps. But would that even work? That would not work, because how do you prove that hash has been computed before video manipulation? Already, the imaging chips do some processing, so you never get the true raw image from the CMOS sensor.
  - joshspankit 3y ago
    Yes, I agree. I don’t think that method could be used if the manipulator was the person taking the photo or the one doing the initial processing. I’m (personally) less concerned about the true raw image vs lossy compression (i.e. JPG), and more concerned with things like the OP where an existing image was changed to show detainees smiling and that image was then used to manipulate the public. The way it is now, it could easily have turned in to a “he said, she said” situation with each side claiming that their pic is the real one and the other’s was manipulated. In a case like that we could (theoretically) look back in the record to see which hash was recorded first.

kevincox 3y ago

You can't. All photos may be fake or manipulated. You can't trust a photo. You need to decide if you trust those who are vouching for a particular photo.

joshspankit 3y ago
Imagine for example that you’re a high-ranking politician. You have staff and PR departments and the whole entourage. You take photos regularly and you want those photos to be public to keep building your brand. It’s just a fact that the public won’t fully trust you if there’s a smear campaign, but you have the originals of everything and that’s very powerful if the public can validate them as original. I’m sure we already have the technology needed to build the tools do that validation, I just don’t know what the winning choices are yet.

tacocataco 3y ago

Stop trying to verify photos and ask the people that were there when the photo was taken?

joshspankit 3y ago
I don’t think that’s going to be enough. How do you verify that it’s them who is responding, or that they are not being coerced? (before anyone comments, yes I know I’m taking this to the extreme, but if we handle the extreme cases we handle the easier ones too)