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It is a conundrum, because the same NRIs oppose bills that would solve India's problems. The ban on crop burning (main cause of Delhi's pollution) was central

by screye 3y ago

It is a conundrum, because the same NRIs oppose bills that would solve India's problems. The ban on crop burning (main cause of Delhi's pollution) was central to the farm bill. But protesting farmers (widely supported in the west) opposed it, and the bill died despite having democratic approval (both national opinion and sufficient votes) > dared to vote a great scientist to president We do not vote for Presidents in India. The president was selected by the ruling party (The same BJP as Modi) to be the ceremonial president. The same one that has now elected a tribal woman to President, to signify secular allegiances. > believe in equal rights If we are to use leaders as a yardstick to measure equality opportunities and rights, then the incompetent ~6th generation heir of the Nehru/Gandhi family leading the opposition is hardly a good look. > disappointed by the country I called home for most of my life As a fellow NRI, this is counter to what I hear from my fellow Indians. There is a ton of optimism around jobs, infrastructure growth and economic policies that are finally opening up the nation, as India embraces the US after decades spent close to the Russia. > potentially great, secular country Even as a big supporter of liberal (as in valuing liberty, low authoritarianism) democracies, the evidence for free-democracies industrializing is exactly zero. Every big nation that has successfully escaped poverty has done so through suffocatingly authoritarian means (SK, Japan, Taiwan, Chile, China, Thailand, Malaysia). Every single one of them only transitioned to a proper liberal democracy (if at all) AFTER industrialization had been achieved. It is depressing. But, the numbers don't lie.

dagmx 3y ago
I corrected the means by which the president is chosen (it’s a vote by the electoral college so it wasn’t completely incorrect to say vote though). Thanks for mentioning that. I don’t think I agree with your other points. But I do hope your optimism pans out because right now things feel bleak.
- shri_krishna 3y ago
  The reality on ground is different from what you read in the press or even online. We see the work being done. When work wasn't being done (recent example of Karnataka), people voted BJP out. The alternative (Congress) came to power promising loads of freebies. Now voters on the ground are pissed off (plenty of videos where people are not willing to pay electricity bills or public transport fares because Congress said it'll make all of that free but never did so till date). So this hyperbole on BJP being "evil" is largely overblown and it is quite persistent in the Hacker News circles. Ultimately the voter decides based on whether the Party in power delivers or not. BJP has been doing great work on the infrastructure/development front as well as attracting investment. That is visible on the ground. What BJP is lacking severely is in State level leadership/politics which needs to be fixed. Congress on the other hand has given up its National ambitions and pursuing weaknesses it sees in BJP's state level politics. This is vibrancy of democracy. Nothing to feel "bleak" about unless you are drowning yourself in anti-India Western media reports and thinking that is the truth. Maybe you need to ask yourself if you are also part of a misinformation bubble yourself without even realizing it?
  - dagmx 3y ago
    I absolutely hate the way fellow Indians will just try and deflect negative stories about India as western propaganda. You do a disservice to your country by following that tired playbook. Did you ever stop to consider that I am actually well informed and genuinely disappointed with my country. Criticism of the country and party doesn’t mean I’m simply misinformed. I was critical of things when I lived there, I consume my news directly from Indian news sites. Maybe you need to ask yourself why you feel the need to assume it’s western propaganda?
    - shri_krishna 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - dagmx 3y ago
        The sheer amount of hubris in your post is astounding. So any opinion other than your own is propaganda fed by the west, but the only true reality is the one you agree with that paints India in a flattering light. Using “the world happiness index” as some kind of gotcha propaganda is hilarious, when we’re discussing actual issues like arresting protestors. Just ridiculous. I won’t be replying again to you because I don’t think you are capable of accepting that other people disagree with your world view. It’s unhealthy and I really think you need to leave your own bubble.
        shuklaritam 3y ago
        Yeah the same Western media that fed the world the news that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction, Libya needs to be attacked to install democracy, justified sanctions on most energy producers who were not much in favor of the USD such as Iran, Venezuela, Libya, Russia. Some day you will realize the Western media is a propaganda tool wielded by the powerful arms and other lobbies to paint their targets and give the Western governments pretext to begin interfering in the matters of a non-pliable foreign government.
        shri_krishna 3y ago
- lagolinguini 3y ago
  I'm sorry, I don't understand why the other commenter thinks they are write and you are wrong? We live in a representative democracy. The Prime Minister is elected by proving a majority in the Lok Sabha, and the President is elected by electoral college, that doesn't mean that the President isn't elected? You are absolutely right to say that the President is elected.
codegeek 3y ago
Funny you are being downvoted because you are speaking the truth. I have already said in another comment that people like the current party because they actually get shit done in various areas like infrastructure etc which was hugely neglected for decades. We all know that but some people wouldn't want to accept.
- throwaway384629 3y ago
  May be you are on same page with the parent poster. But I answered to the parent comment mentioning most of the claims are wrong. Btw, selling government assets to private companies, or getting the new roads constructed and charging tolls on them does not exactly considered as a government achievement.
- chakravyuh 3y ago
  The methodology for measuring highways built was changed in 2018 [1]. Read about it yourself. [1] https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/now-new-concept-to-measure-length-of-highways-from-april-1/story-Q44qGgFzl4DsAPv5OIG0YI.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/now-new-concept-to...
throwaway384629 3y ago
Wow! Most of what you mentioned is plain wrong. Not sure if you are mistaken or lying knowingly. >> The ban on crop burning (main cause of Delhi's pollution) was central to the farm bill. Crop burning is already outlawed in India and enforced with fines. Why you need to make a new law for something which is already illegal? Below was the actual central idea of the farm bill: "The laws would have deregulated a system of government-run wholesale markets, allowing farmers to sell directly to food processors, but farmers feared that this would result in the end of government-guaranteed price floors, thereby reducing the prices they would receive for their crops."[1] >> We do not vote for Presidents in India. Again, wrong. The 2022 Indian presidential election was held on 18 July 2022 to elect the president of India. The election was the 16th presidential election in India since the Partition. [2] >> incompetent ~6th generation heir of the Nehru/Gandhi family Source please? >> There is a ton of optimism around jobs, infrastructure growth and economic policies Source please? You must be living in an alternate world. >> Every single one of them only transitioned to a proper liberal democracy So, China is a "proper liberal democracy" as per you? Also can you please share a source to support your claims? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Indian_agriculture_acts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Indian_agriculture_acts [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Indian_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Indian_presidential_elect...
- sbmthakur 3y ago
  Stubble burning was long banned but it's still being practiced and contributes to Delhi's pollution. In fact, one of the demands of the farm protests was to release those who were arrested for stubble burning[1]. > Again, wrong. The 2022 Indian presidential election was held on 18 July 2022 to elect the president of India. It's not a general election. Only MPs and MLAs get to vote for the president. > Source please? You must be living in an alternate world. There are indeed concerns on job growth but infrastructure growth and economic policies have caught pace in the last decade. There's a reason why Meta, Google and Aramco want to pour money into the country. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_Indian_farmers%27_protest#Later_demands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_Indian_farme...
  - 3y ago
lagolinguini 3y ago
> We do not vote for Presidents in India. The fact that they are elected by electoral college does not make them non-democratic or non-elected. We live in a representative democracy. > As a fellow NRI, this is counter to what I hear from my fellow Indians. There is a ton of optimism around jobs, infrastructure growth and economic policies that are finally opening up the nation One wouldn't rely on anecdotal evidence to justify policy. For example my own experience is the opposite of yours. I hear complains about unemployment, lack of safety for women, cost of living crisis, lack of safety of Muslims. > Every big nation that has successfully escaped poverty has done so through suffocatingly authoritarian means Just because others failed doesn't mean we should too. Keep in Mind that the Republic of India has survived until now, and people at it's inception said it wouldn't.
chakravyuh 3y ago
> The ban on crop burning (main cause of Delhi's pollution) was central to the farm bill. But protesting farmers (widely supported in the west) opposed it, and the bill died despite having democratic approval (both national opinion and sufficient votes) Then why is Delhi's air quality consistently poor, unhealthy, severe and hazardous even when there is no crop burning? https://www.aqi.in/us/dashboard/india/delhi/new-delhi https://www.aqi.in/us/dashboard/india/delhi/new-delhi Of course we need to do something about crop burning, but is it the "main" reason? Nope.

by screye 3y ago

dagmx 3y ago

I corrected the means by which the president is chosen (it’s a vote by the electoral college so it wasn’t completely incorrect to say vote though). Thanks for mentioning that. I don’t think I agree with your other points. But I do hope your optimism pans out because right now things feel bleak.

shri_krishna 3y ago
The reality on ground is different from what you read in the press or even online. We see the work being done. When work wasn't being done (recent example of Karnataka), people voted BJP out. The alternative (Congress) came to power promising loads of freebies. Now voters on the ground are pissed off (plenty of videos where people are not willing to pay electricity bills or public transport fares because Congress said it'll make all of that free but never did so till date). So this hyperbole on BJP being "evil" is largely overblown and it is quite persistent in the Hacker News circles. Ultimately the voter decides based on whether the Party in power delivers or not. BJP has been doing great work on the infrastructure/development front as well as attracting investment. That is visible on the ground. What BJP is lacking severely is in State level leadership/politics which needs to be fixed. Congress on the other hand has given up its National ambitions and pursuing weaknesses it sees in BJP's state level politics. This is vibrancy of democracy. Nothing to feel "bleak" about unless you are drowning yourself in anti-India Western media reports and thinking that is the truth. Maybe you need to ask yourself if you are also part of a misinformation bubble yourself without even realizing it?
- dagmx 3y ago
  I absolutely hate the way fellow Indians will just try and deflect negative stories about India as western propaganda. You do a disservice to your country by following that tired playbook. Did you ever stop to consider that I am actually well informed and genuinely disappointed with my country. Criticism of the country and party doesn’t mean I’m simply misinformed. I was critical of things when I lived there, I consume my news directly from Indian news sites. Maybe you need to ask yourself why you feel the need to assume it’s western propaganda?
  - shri_krishna 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - dagmx 3y ago
      The sheer amount of hubris in your post is astounding. So any opinion other than your own is propaganda fed by the west, but the only true reality is the one you agree with that paints India in a flattering light. Using “the world happiness index” as some kind of gotcha propaganda is hilarious, when we’re discussing actual issues like arresting protestors. Just ridiculous. I won’t be replying again to you because I don’t think you are capable of accepting that other people disagree with your world view. It’s unhealthy and I really think you need to leave your own bubble.
      - shuklaritam 3y ago
        Yeah the same Western media that fed the world the news that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction, Libya needs to be attacked to install democracy, justified sanctions on most energy producers who were not much in favor of the USD such as Iran, Venezuela, Libya, Russia. Some day you will realize the Western media is a propaganda tool wielded by the powerful arms and other lobbies to paint their targets and give the Western governments pretext to begin interfering in the matters of a non-pliable foreign government.
      - shri_krishna 3y ago
lagolinguini 3y ago
I'm sorry, I don't understand why the other commenter thinks they are write and you are wrong? We live in a representative democracy. The Prime Minister is elected by proving a majority in the Lok Sabha, and the President is elected by electoral college, that doesn't mean that the President isn't elected? You are absolutely right to say that the President is elected.

codegeek 3y ago

Funny you are being downvoted because you are speaking the truth. I have already said in another comment that people like the current party because they actually get shit done in various areas like infrastructure etc which was hugely neglected for decades. We all know that but some people wouldn't want to accept.

throwaway384629 3y ago
May be you are on same page with the parent poster. But I answered to the parent comment mentioning most of the claims are wrong. Btw, selling government assets to private companies, or getting the new roads constructed and charging tolls on them does not exactly considered as a government achievement.
chakravyuh 3y ago
The methodology for measuring highways built was changed in 2018 [1]. Read about it yourself. [1] https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/now-new-concept-to-measure-length-of-highways-from-april-1/story-Q44qGgFzl4DsAPv5OIG0YI.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/now-new-concept-to...

throwaway384629 3y ago

Wow! Most of what you mentioned is plain wrong. Not sure if you are mistaken or lying knowingly. >> The ban on crop burning (main cause of Delhi's pollution) was central to the farm bill. Crop burning is already outlawed in India and enforced with fines. Why you need to make a new law for something which is already illegal? Below was the actual central idea of the farm bill: "The laws would have deregulated a system of government-run wholesale markets, allowing farmers to sell directly to food processors, but farmers feared that this would result in the end of government-guaranteed price floors, thereby reducing the prices they would receive for their crops."[1] >> We do not vote for Presidents in India. Again, wrong. The 2022 Indian presidential election was held on 18 July 2022 to elect the president of India. The election was the 16th presidential election in India since the Partition. [2] >> incompetent ~6th generation heir of the Nehru/Gandhi family Source please? >> There is a ton of optimism around jobs, infrastructure growth and economic policies Source please? You must be living in an alternate world. >> Every single one of them only transitioned to a proper liberal democracy So, China is a "proper liberal democracy" as per you? Also can you please share a source to support your claims? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Indian_agriculture_acts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Indian_agriculture_acts [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Indian_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Indian_presidential_elect...

sbmthakur 3y ago
Stubble burning was long banned but it's still being practiced and contributes to Delhi's pollution. In fact, one of the demands of the farm protests was to release those who were arrested for stubble burning[1]. > Again, wrong. The 2022 Indian presidential election was held on 18 July 2022 to elect the president of India. It's not a general election. Only MPs and MLAs get to vote for the president. > Source please? You must be living in an alternate world. There are indeed concerns on job growth but infrastructure growth and economic policies have caught pace in the last decade. There's a reason why Meta, Google and Aramco want to pour money into the country. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_Indian_farmers%27_protest#Later_demands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_Indian_farme...
- 3y ago

lagolinguini 3y ago

> We do not vote for Presidents in India. The fact that they are elected by electoral college does not make them non-democratic or non-elected. We live in a representative democracy. > As a fellow NRI, this is counter to what I hear from my fellow Indians. There is a ton of optimism around jobs, infrastructure growth and economic policies that are finally opening up the nation One wouldn't rely on anecdotal evidence to justify policy. For example my own experience is the opposite of yours. I hear complains about unemployment, lack of safety for women, cost of living crisis, lack of safety of Muslims. > Every big nation that has successfully escaped poverty has done so through suffocatingly authoritarian means Just because others failed doesn't mean we should too. Keep in Mind that the Republic of India has survived until now, and people at it's inception said it wouldn't.

chakravyuh 3y ago

> The ban on crop burning (main cause of Delhi's pollution) was central to the farm bill. But protesting farmers (widely supported in the west) opposed it, and the bill died despite having democratic approval (both national opinion and sufficient votes) Then why is Delhi's air quality consistently poor, unhealthy, severe and hazardous even when there is no crop burning? https://www.aqi.in/us/dashboard/india/delhi/new-delhi https://www.aqi.in/us/dashboard/india/delhi/new-delhi Of course we need to do something about crop burning, but is it the "main" reason? Nope.