4 ms·

I played DX:MD just before Cyberpunk, and it made Cyberpunk feel so dead and barren in comparison. The levels of interactivity and exploration in MD's Prague we

by sho_hn 3y ago

I played DX:MD just before Cyberpunk, and it made Cyberpunk feel so dead and barren in comparison. The levels of interactivity and exploration in MD's Prague were crazy off the charts in direct comparison. Discovering an entire underground little civilization in the sewers and tunnels I could have equally just easily missed etc. really made me feel like I was discovering things just for me. Cyberpunk instead felt like clinically crossing off items on the map/quest tracker todo list; aside from the fantastic visuals, just looking around on your own offered basically no rewards at all in the game. Similar feelings around NPC interaction and AI. Add the fact that Cyberpunk's "hand-holding you through the environment" approach feels more and more lacklustre and grindy as the game develops, as they clearly ran out of resources to do all of the custom animations and setups they have in the first couple of hours to at least make it feel big and cinematic. The emergent/more sim-heavy/sandboxy approach of the DX games is more even there, and things tend to feel deeper rather than shallower over time, I think.

smcl 3y ago
I played them the other way round (well Cyberpunk, then Human Revolution and then Mankind) and had the same feeling. Cyberpunk is enormous but relatively hollow in comparison to both in my opinion.
- 9dev 3y ago
  On the other hand, DX has such intricate details precisely because it isn’t enormous, but rather constrained (still big, don’t get me wrong, but definitely way smaller). You can feel how someone poured attention to every nook and cranny, something just not possible on the scale of Cyberpunk. On the other hand, there’s Red Dead 2…
  - _cenw 3y ago
    RDR2 is the most confused game I've ever played. They have this great open world and a lot of systems and "immersion" that very clearly years of work have went into, yet very few of those systems interact with each other (or the main plot) in interesting ways and the story is still the typical tired half cutscenes + half linear, highly choreographed gameplay with little room for creativity (no deviating from the exact text on the bottom) that Rockstar has been using mostly unchanged since at least GTA IV.
    - ehnto 3y ago
      I must admit RDR2 stunned me in many ways, but I was still left a little bored. I think for the reason you explained. Occasionally something wild will happen, that fell organically out of the systemic gameplay elements and I will wish the whole game was like that.
Semaphor 3y ago
I’ll recommend the original here. It doesn’t come close in looks, looking like the 20-year-old game it is, even with the fan made HD patches, but the world design, story, and interaction are great. And FWIW, I spent very little time with Cyberpunk before shelving it.
- sho_hn 3y ago
  I'll second that. It's my favorite game of all time.
- zelphirkalt 3y ago
  insert HongKong or UNATCO music here I still listen to the soundtrack from time to time. It is just great music and makes me wish I could "unplay" and play again for the first time. I hope they do at some point make another Deus Ex game. One as good as the first one, Human Revolution or Mankind Divided.
  - sho_hn 3y ago
    Reportedly, Eidos Montreal is working on a new one, after they got acquired by Embracer.
  - ehnto 3y ago
    All the DX soundtracks are great, I listen to them while working pretty often.
    - gwicks56 3y ago
      I randomly chose a Spotify playlist recently called "Programming music". Was a few hours in, and was like, "hmmmm, this music sounds weirdly familiar", checked the playlist, it was a few hours of Deus Ex music! It was perfect to write code to! My favourite series of games by a long margin
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    Because they deserve linking every time someone mentions them. UNATCO: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nBPK_oXeJgA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nBPK_oXeJgA Hong Kong: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQZNNajxOk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQZNNajxOk (give it until 0:35 if you haven't heard it before)
cubefox 3y ago
Deus Ex (like Thief) is a classic example of a genre called "immersive sim" or "systemic game". Basically games with an unusually high environmental/NPC interactivity. Not many of these games have ever been made. Apparently they don't sell so well. Cyberpunk 2077 is just a fairly normal RPG, so you can't really compare them.
- theK 3y ago
  I never really got how I.mersove Sims fail to capture a market considering the sheer number of people that enjoy similarly detailed SciFi/fantasy work. Can it just be tragedy of the commons?
  - _cenw 3y ago
    They're very expensive games to make and the audience is comparatively small. The audience might also just be hard to capture since it's not too easy to explain an immersive sim and the appeal to someone.
    - cubefox 3y ago
      Another problem is that people absolutely love large open world games. Which can't really be combined with a meticulously designed immersive sim. So designers have not much choice if they want to sell things. Perhaps immersive sims would need one real block buster to make the genre more widely known? (Similar to Elder Scrolls 3 or GTA 3 for open world games, Dark Souls for Soulsborne games, Super Metroid for Metroidvanias, etc.) There wasn't ever a real immersive sim blockbuster. Or maybe it's just not for the masses. Like point-and-click adventures.
      - sho_hn 3y ago
        I love games that try to find the right set of compromises to have their cake and eat it, too, in terms of combining open world feel with linear, tight narrative and deeply simulated environments. To me Gothic was one of the milestones: One of the first large 3D open world RPGs that had a chapter structure. As you progressed the main quest line, you would eventually cross chapter boundaries that would toggle major changes in the game world, e.g. whether a given city was in front of or behind the frontlines of a conflict, altering massively who you would find there or what it looked like. While some side quest opportunities would persist over the chapter boundary, other doors would close and new ones would open. All of this did a lot to feel like the game world was meaningfully progressing alongside you, and to show the impact of your own actions on the game world. As for Deus Ex, even the original had these "hub" locations like Hell's Kitchen, maps you'd return to more than once, in different circumstances, while also taking you all over the world to mission locations. A lot of missions had "establishing locations" where you'd e.g. walk around in a new city a bit before breaking into a corporate HQ found within it. This gave you just enough freedom to make it feel like more than a linear corridor shooter with sim elements, while in reality being planned out and guided enough you had your narrative arcs and peaks. The sequels of course expanded on this with Detroit, Prague, etc. There's fantastic game design artistry in blending and balancing these concerns. With DX, people usually comment on the sim elements, emergent gameplay, multiple approaches to mission goals, etc., but its story and map structure is IMHO another thing that made that game so groundbreaking and memorable. The immersive sim it got from Ultima Underworld and System Shock, but this careful orchestration of alternating linear and more free-form stretches, of having character arcs, of circling back on itself and revisiting locations, of having narrative beats was new to 3D/FPS games and showed the way.
sebazzz 3y ago
> Discovering an entire underground little civilization in the sewers and tunnels I could have equally just easily missed etc. Remind me, what was that? The original DX had the mole people under the New York City metro.
- MutableLambda 3y ago
  Probably SM02: Cult of Personality
  - sho_hn 3y ago
    Yup! I mean, there was a lot going on down there. If you ever find yourself browsing Prague real estate, definitely inquire about secret doors in the basement, trap doors, tunnels, and the like! If there's stuff missing in the pantry, you want to be able to rule out your neighbors.
- ethbr0 3y ago
  If this happened in MD, it's definitely a callback to DX. It's not just the mole people in NYC -- there's an entirely-skippable base early in the game that clues you into bigger things happening. You can pick up its existence by talking to the mole people. (From memory) [Warning, spoilers] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CViR2uaRAnY&t=8m40s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CViR2uaRAnY&t=8m40s Edit: Ha, "These tunnels aren't on the New York City sewer maps... weird" really takes me back.

by sho_hn 3y ago

smcl 3y ago

I played them the other way round (well Cyberpunk, then Human Revolution and then Mankind) and had the same feeling. Cyberpunk is enormous but relatively hollow in comparison to both in my opinion.

9dev 3y ago
On the other hand, DX has such intricate details precisely because it isn’t enormous, but rather constrained (still big, don’t get me wrong, but definitely way smaller). You can feel how someone poured attention to every nook and cranny, something just not possible on the scale of Cyberpunk. On the other hand, there’s Red Dead 2…
- _cenw 3y ago
  RDR2 is the most confused game I've ever played. They have this great open world and a lot of systems and "immersion" that very clearly years of work have went into, yet very few of those systems interact with each other (or the main plot) in interesting ways and the story is still the typical tired half cutscenes + half linear, highly choreographed gameplay with little room for creativity (no deviating from the exact text on the bottom) that Rockstar has been using mostly unchanged since at least GTA IV.
  - ehnto 3y ago
    I must admit RDR2 stunned me in many ways, but I was still left a little bored. I think for the reason you explained. Occasionally something wild will happen, that fell organically out of the systemic gameplay elements and I will wish the whole game was like that.

Semaphor 3y ago

I’ll recommend the original here. It doesn’t come close in looks, looking like the 20-year-old game it is, even with the fan made HD patches, but the world design, story, and interaction are great. And FWIW, I spent very little time with Cyberpunk before shelving it.

sho_hn 3y ago
I'll second that. It's my favorite game of all time.
zelphirkalt 3y ago
insert HongKong or UNATCO music here I still listen to the soundtrack from time to time. It is just great music and makes me wish I could "unplay" and play again for the first time. I hope they do at some point make another Deus Ex game. One as good as the first one, Human Revolution or Mankind Divided.
- sho_hn 3y ago
  Reportedly, Eidos Montreal is working on a new one, after they got acquired by Embracer.
- ehnto 3y ago
  All the DX soundtracks are great, I listen to them while working pretty often.
  - gwicks56 3y ago
    I randomly chose a Spotify playlist recently called "Programming music". Was a few hours in, and was like, "hmmmm, this music sounds weirdly familiar", checked the playlist, it was a few hours of Deus Ex music! It was perfect to write code to! My favourite series of games by a long margin
- ethbr0 3y ago
  Because they deserve linking every time someone mentions them. UNATCO: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nBPK_oXeJgA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nBPK_oXeJgA Hong Kong: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQZNNajxOk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQZNNajxOk (give it until 0:35 if you haven't heard it before)

cubefox 3y ago

Deus Ex (like Thief) is a classic example of a genre called "immersive sim" or "systemic game". Basically games with an unusually high environmental/NPC interactivity. Not many of these games have ever been made. Apparently they don't sell so well. Cyberpunk 2077 is just a fairly normal RPG, so you can't really compare them.

theK 3y ago
I never really got how I.mersove Sims fail to capture a market considering the sheer number of people that enjoy similarly detailed SciFi/fantasy work. Can it just be tragedy of the commons?
- _cenw 3y ago
  They're very expensive games to make and the audience is comparatively small. The audience might also just be hard to capture since it's not too easy to explain an immersive sim and the appeal to someone.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    Another problem is that people absolutely love large open world games. Which can't really be combined with a meticulously designed immersive sim. So designers have not much choice if they want to sell things. Perhaps immersive sims would need one real block buster to make the genre more widely known? (Similar to Elder Scrolls 3 or GTA 3 for open world games, Dark Souls for Soulsborne games, Super Metroid for Metroidvanias, etc.) There wasn't ever a real immersive sim blockbuster. Or maybe it's just not for the masses. Like point-and-click adventures.
    - sho_hn 3y ago
      I love games that try to find the right set of compromises to have their cake and eat it, too, in terms of combining open world feel with linear, tight narrative and deeply simulated environments. To me Gothic was one of the milestones: One of the first large 3D open world RPGs that had a chapter structure. As you progressed the main quest line, you would eventually cross chapter boundaries that would toggle major changes in the game world, e.g. whether a given city was in front of or behind the frontlines of a conflict, altering massively who you would find there or what it looked like. While some side quest opportunities would persist over the chapter boundary, other doors would close and new ones would open. All of this did a lot to feel like the game world was meaningfully progressing alongside you, and to show the impact of your own actions on the game world. As for Deus Ex, even the original had these "hub" locations like Hell's Kitchen, maps you'd return to more than once, in different circumstances, while also taking you all over the world to mission locations. A lot of missions had "establishing locations" where you'd e.g. walk around in a new city a bit before breaking into a corporate HQ found within it. This gave you just enough freedom to make it feel like more than a linear corridor shooter with sim elements, while in reality being planned out and guided enough you had your narrative arcs and peaks. The sequels of course expanded on this with Detroit, Prague, etc. There's fantastic game design artistry in blending and balancing these concerns. With DX, people usually comment on the sim elements, emergent gameplay, multiple approaches to mission goals, etc., but its story and map structure is IMHO another thing that made that game so groundbreaking and memorable. The immersive sim it got from Ultima Underworld and System Shock, but this careful orchestration of alternating linear and more free-form stretches, of having character arcs, of circling back on itself and revisiting locations, of having narrative beats was new to 3D/FPS games and showed the way.

sebazzz 3y ago

> Discovering an entire underground little civilization in the sewers and tunnels I could have equally just easily missed etc. Remind me, what was that? The original DX had the mole people under the New York City metro.

MutableLambda 3y ago
Probably SM02: Cult of Personality
- sho_hn 3y ago
  Yup! I mean, there was a lot going on down there. If you ever find yourself browsing Prague real estate, definitely inquire about secret doors in the basement, trap doors, tunnels, and the like! If there's stuff missing in the pantry, you want to be able to rule out your neighbors.
ethbr0 3y ago
If this happened in MD, it's definitely a callback to DX. It's not just the mole people in NYC -- there's an entirely-skippable base early in the game that clues you into bigger things happening. You can pick up its existence by talking to the mole people. (From memory) [Warning, spoilers] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CViR2uaRAnY&t=8m40s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CViR2uaRAnY&t=8m40s Edit: Ha, "These tunnels aren't on the New York City sewer maps... weird" really takes me back.