6 ms·

I'm curious what kind of law might prohibit this. I'm not doubting that such a law might exist in a state like Nevada, just not sure how it might be written. O

by gumby 3y ago

I'm curious what kind of law might prohibit this. I'm not doubting that such a law might exist in a state like Nevada, just not sure how it might be written. On the casino side I can imagine a a slot machine might be required to have some kind of certified RNG and some requirement of statistical behavior, or that a roulette wheel must have some certification of symmetry etc. On the player side I can imagine ordinary false currency laws to prohibit putting slugs in slot machines etc, or marking or switching out cards, using fake chips etc. But in a game with an affordance that permits moving the dice in this way, how would you write such a law? In a craps table the dice must travel far from the hand and must bounce off the back end so the technique in the article is mechanically impossible. I'd think that this is the casino's mistake, not the players', but apparently some law says otherwise.

dec0dedab0de 3y ago
Real craps tables also have a wire down the middle to prevent sliding. Before the wire was in place, the trick some cheaters would do is to spin the dice and slide them down the table, so they look like they're rolling. This was a digital craps table that somehow allowed the players to get away with sliding. So who knows what the actual technique was.
- alanpca 3y ago
  I have never seen a wire on any table, ever.
  - raldi 3y ago
    Me neither, and I’ve played Craps in many cities in several countries. I can’t find any google results for [craps table wire] either.
    - dec0dedab0de 3y ago
      They're definitely on every Atlantic city and las Vegas table I've ever seen. But they blend in and are very subtle. It's just enough to make the dice tumble if they're being slid instead of rolled. Most people never even think of it because the stickman should be telling you to throw the dice to the back wall anyway. Next time you're at a table look in the middle right in front of the boxman.
      - raldi 3y ago
        Here’s a photo of Las Vegas table. Could you mark it up to show where the wire is supposed to be? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/us/las-vegas-coronavirus-casinos.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/us/las-vegas-coronavirus-...
        dec0dedab0de 3y ago
        Andy800 did a better job replying, but I drew where the wire is on the photo you sent. https://imgur.com/a/nvRbLsA https://imgur.com/a/nvRbLsA In andy800's example you can see it under the felt but I think I have seen them over the felt as well, but either wat it is very subtle and you won't notice it if you're not looking for it. I had played craps for over a decade before I read a book that mentioned it, and since then I have noticed it every time.
        andy800 3y ago
        That's behind a paywall. In any case the photo needs to be very, very close to see it. Look closely at this photo at full resolution: https://images.freeimages.com/images/large-previews/2cb/craps-table-1-1547488.jpg https://images.freeimages.com/images/large-previews/2cb/crap... There is a very subtle North-South bump under the felt, directly in the center, under the words "CRAPS" and "DEALER and PLAYERS" and "Seven". It might be easiest to see at the lowest horizontal line, below the words "Any Craps." Here's another hi-res photo, you need to already know it's there, but you can just barely make it out if you look very closely right down the center, under the felt: https://i0.wp.com/agrlv.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSC01208.jpg?fit=6000%2C3376 https://i0.wp.com/agrlv.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSC01...
pclmulqdq 3y ago
The only law you need is the rules of a game and a "theft by fraud" statute, which already exist everywhere. The rules of craps generally require that the dice tumble some number of times and bounce off a wall to ensure randomness, and I would be certain that the general rules of craps apply to this game as well. Dice sliding is against the rules already. This isn't a "legal loophole" sort of situation, it's cheating, and thus theft by fraud. Note that card counting is a "loophole" to this idea, since nothing about the rules of blackjack prevents you from memorizing cards, and thus it is not against the rules of the game. On the casino side, by the way, this means some very stringent RNG requirements in slot machines and electronic gaming machines (often requiring specialized TRNG devices), as well as testing gaming devices, from the most complex slot machines to the dice, very stringently.
- to11mtm 3y ago
  > Note that card counting is a "loophole" to this idea, since nothing about the rules of blackjack prevents you from memorizing cards, and thus it is not against the rules of the game. Typically in these cases the house is limited to either ejecting someone they decide is a 'counter' after they win the hand, or applying countermeasures such as having two decks and shuffling one while the other is in play for a hand (and then using the shuffled one for the next hand.)
  - Zanni 3y ago
    I can't remember the last time I saw a single-deck game being dealt. Lowest I've seen (and not recently) is double-deck, dealing about half the cards before shuffling. More common are six or eight deck shoes, dealing anywhere from half to three-quarters of the cards before shuffling. (Most egregious are the continuous-shuffle machines where cards are fed in after every hand.)
    - ec109685 3y ago
      They have single deck in Vegas but mess with blackjack odds to keep their advantage.
varenc 3y ago
I couldn't find a law articulating this in Nevada, though I did find one in Indiana. The important part seems to be: (c) The stickperson may declare the following rolls invalid: ... (8) If the shooter slides the dice across the table so that one (1) or both of the dice do not roll or tumble. Though if the stickperson doesn't spot the roll as invalid and lets it be played not sure if any law is being broken. (There might be another provision addressing the situation where invalid rolls are done intentionally and repeatedly with the intent to deceive) Found it here: https://casetext.com/regulation/indiana-administrative-code/title-68-indiana-gaming-commission/article-10-conduct-of-gaming/rule-68-iac-10-4-craps/section-68-iac-10-4-4-proper-and-invalid-rolls-of-dice https://casetext.com/regulation/indiana-administrative-code/...
- raldi 3y ago
  That only says the house has permission to invalidate the roll, not that the player is committing a crime (as would be the case if they were, say, using a device to cheat).
- mike_d 3y ago
  A good defense attorney might be able to find them an out here. The game in question is an electronic version of craps where there is only one employee monitoring it, and that individual may not legally be the stickperson.
sour-taste 3y ago
If this was a good article it would tell us the specific charges. All it says is > All four face several cheating-related charges and are connected to one criminal case, records showed
to11mtm 3y ago
> On the casino side I can imagine a a slot machine might be required to have some kind of certified RNG and some requirement of statistical behavior, or that a roulette wheel must have some certification of symmetry etc. A colleague of mine from college works for the gaming commission in our state (not NV.) had a 'catch-up' dinner a little over a decade ago. She intimated that one of her duties was to take the ROMs from slot machines and run them through a device that calculated the hash [0], to make sure that the code matched an 'approved' code base. [0] - I can't recall whether it was MD5 or SHA-1, but definitely one of the two. Hopefully that's changed by now!
- fomine3 3y ago
  Here in Japan, all Pachinko game machines (technically not a gambling in law, but actually) have Z80 installed for lottery logic written in asm, even if the machine equips Intel Core and GeForce. So audit authority can check the logic.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  I have tangentially tried to do some business with the other side of this, as a maker of TRNGs. The audit requirements were impressive, although most machines now are quite a bit more advanced (at least outside of Nevada), and basically run a gaming computer with a hardware root of trust and an RNG dongle.
- RockRobotRock 3y ago
  I heard in a documentary that one guy who cheated slots was actually the guy inspecting the ROMs
sacnoradhq 3y ago
Interesting. Is there a written law or user agreement stating per game: 1. Each die must cross certain boundaries? 2. A player's body cannot get within X units of distance from the play area? 3. What's preventing a player from dropping dice straight down? 4. Can the dealer refuse a roll as invalid and require a reroll?
- ConcernedCoder 3y ago
  I've played craps in las vegas, at a minimum: 1. you're required to throw the dice all the way to the end of the table so that they bounce back before coming to a stop ( this is to prevent sliding ) -- the ends of the table have what's called a "randomizer" to bounce the dice in a random way ( see: https://depositphotos.com/74686689/stock-photo-pair-of-dice-on-the.html https://depositphotos.com/74686689/stock-photo-pair-of-dice-... ) 2. the stickman or table boss can and will invalidate a throw if you don't do the above ( although in practice, I've only ever been "warned" to do it as above when my throw didn't quite make it all the way to the end of the table )
hackernewds 3y ago
The law that states that the game is only fair as long as the house wins

by gumby 3y ago

dec0dedab0de 3y ago

Real craps tables also have a wire down the middle to prevent sliding. Before the wire was in place, the trick some cheaters would do is to spin the dice and slide them down the table, so they look like they're rolling. This was a digital craps table that somehow allowed the players to get away with sliding. So who knows what the actual technique was.

alanpca 3y ago
I have never seen a wire on any table, ever.
- raldi 3y ago
  Me neither, and I’ve played Craps in many cities in several countries. I can’t find any google results for [craps table wire] either.
  - dec0dedab0de 3y ago
    They're definitely on every Atlantic city and las Vegas table I've ever seen. But they blend in and are very subtle. It's just enough to make the dice tumble if they're being slid instead of rolled. Most people never even think of it because the stickman should be telling you to throw the dice to the back wall anyway. Next time you're at a table look in the middle right in front of the boxman.
    - raldi 3y ago
      Here’s a photo of Las Vegas table. Could you mark it up to show where the wire is supposed to be? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/us/las-vegas-coronavirus-casinos.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/us/las-vegas-coronavirus-...
      - dec0dedab0de 3y ago
        Andy800 did a better job replying, but I drew where the wire is on the photo you sent. https://imgur.com/a/nvRbLsA https://imgur.com/a/nvRbLsA In andy800's example you can see it under the felt but I think I have seen them over the felt as well, but either wat it is very subtle and you won't notice it if you're not looking for it. I had played craps for over a decade before I read a book that mentioned it, and since then I have noticed it every time.
      - andy800 3y ago
        That's behind a paywall. In any case the photo needs to be very, very close to see it. Look closely at this photo at full resolution: https://images.freeimages.com/images/large-previews/2cb/craps-table-1-1547488.jpg https://images.freeimages.com/images/large-previews/2cb/crap... There is a very subtle North-South bump under the felt, directly in the center, under the words "CRAPS" and "DEALER and PLAYERS" and "Seven". It might be easiest to see at the lowest horizontal line, below the words "Any Craps." Here's another hi-res photo, you need to already know it's there, but you can just barely make it out if you look very closely right down the center, under the felt: https://i0.wp.com/agrlv.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSC01208.jpg?fit=6000%2C3376 https://i0.wp.com/agrlv.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSC01...

pclmulqdq 3y ago

The only law you need is the rules of a game and a "theft by fraud" statute, which already exist everywhere. The rules of craps generally require that the dice tumble some number of times and bounce off a wall to ensure randomness, and I would be certain that the general rules of craps apply to this game as well. Dice sliding is against the rules already. This isn't a "legal loophole" sort of situation, it's cheating, and thus theft by fraud. Note that card counting is a "loophole" to this idea, since nothing about the rules of blackjack prevents you from memorizing cards, and thus it is not against the rules of the game. On the casino side, by the way, this means some very stringent RNG requirements in slot machines and electronic gaming machines (often requiring specialized TRNG devices), as well as testing gaming devices, from the most complex slot machines to the dice, very stringently.

to11mtm 3y ago
> Note that card counting is a "loophole" to this idea, since nothing about the rules of blackjack prevents you from memorizing cards, and thus it is not against the rules of the game. Typically in these cases the house is limited to either ejecting someone they decide is a 'counter' after they win the hand, or applying countermeasures such as having two decks and shuffling one while the other is in play for a hand (and then using the shuffled one for the next hand.)
- Zanni 3y ago
  I can't remember the last time I saw a single-deck game being dealt. Lowest I've seen (and not recently) is double-deck, dealing about half the cards before shuffling. More common are six or eight deck shoes, dealing anywhere from half to three-quarters of the cards before shuffling. (Most egregious are the continuous-shuffle machines where cards are fed in after every hand.)
  - ec109685 3y ago
    They have single deck in Vegas but mess with blackjack odds to keep their advantage.

varenc 3y ago

I couldn't find a law articulating this in Nevada, though I did find one in Indiana. The important part seems to be: (c) The stickperson may declare the following rolls invalid: ... (8) If the shooter slides the dice across the table so that one (1) or both of the dice do not roll or tumble. Though if the stickperson doesn't spot the roll as invalid and lets it be played not sure if any law is being broken. (There might be another provision addressing the situation where invalid rolls are done intentionally and repeatedly with the intent to deceive) Found it here: https://casetext.com/regulation/indiana-administrative-code/title-68-indiana-gaming-commission/article-10-conduct-of-gaming/rule-68-iac-10-4-craps/section-68-iac-10-4-4-proper-and-invalid-rolls-of-dice https://casetext.com/regulation/indiana-administrative-code/...

raldi 3y ago
That only says the house has permission to invalidate the roll, not that the player is committing a crime (as would be the case if they were, say, using a device to cheat).
mike_d 3y ago
A good defense attorney might be able to find them an out here. The game in question is an electronic version of craps where there is only one employee monitoring it, and that individual may not legally be the stickperson.

sour-taste 3y ago

If this was a good article it would tell us the specific charges. All it says is > All four face several cheating-related charges and are connected to one criminal case, records showed

to11mtm 3y ago

> On the casino side I can imagine a a slot machine might be required to have some kind of certified RNG and some requirement of statistical behavior, or that a roulette wheel must have some certification of symmetry etc. A colleague of mine from college works for the gaming commission in our state (not NV.) had a 'catch-up' dinner a little over a decade ago. She intimated that one of her duties was to take the ROMs from slot machines and run them through a device that calculated the hash [0], to make sure that the code matched an 'approved' code base. [0] - I can't recall whether it was MD5 or SHA-1, but definitely one of the two. Hopefully that's changed by now!

fomine3 3y ago
Here in Japan, all Pachinko game machines (technically not a gambling in law, but actually) have Z80 installed for lottery logic written in asm, even if the machine equips Intel Core and GeForce. So audit authority can check the logic.
pclmulqdq 3y ago
I have tangentially tried to do some business with the other side of this, as a maker of TRNGs. The audit requirements were impressive, although most machines now are quite a bit more advanced (at least outside of Nevada), and basically run a gaming computer with a hardware root of trust and an RNG dongle.
RockRobotRock 3y ago
I heard in a documentary that one guy who cheated slots was actually the guy inspecting the ROMs

sacnoradhq 3y ago

Interesting. Is there a written law or user agreement stating per game: 1. Each die must cross certain boundaries? 2. A player's body cannot get within X units of distance from the play area? 3. What's preventing a player from dropping dice straight down? 4. Can the dealer refuse a roll as invalid and require a reroll?

ConcernedCoder 3y ago
I've played craps in las vegas, at a minimum: 1. you're required to throw the dice all the way to the end of the table so that they bounce back before coming to a stop ( this is to prevent sliding ) -- the ends of the table have what's called a "randomizer" to bounce the dice in a random way ( see: https://depositphotos.com/74686689/stock-photo-pair-of-dice-on-the.html https://depositphotos.com/74686689/stock-photo-pair-of-dice-... ) 2. the stickman or table boss can and will invalidate a throw if you don't do the above ( although in practice, I've only ever been "warned" to do it as above when my throw didn't quite make it all the way to the end of the table )

hackernewds 3y ago

The law that states that the game is only fair as long as the house wins