5 ms·

As a person not from america, the fact that this is the main view is worrying to me. Over here in the UK it's 100% normal to just use the rule of thumb that as

As a person not from america, the fact that this is the main view is worrying to me. Over here in the UK it's 100% normal to just use the rule of thumb that as long as you try not to get burnt, it's healthy to get some sun. No sunblock needed unless you know you'll be out in it for many hours without shade like if you go to the beach or a long walk.

fnordpiglet 3y ago
The dermatologist cartel in the US advices zero unprotected sun exposure. There’s evidence this is a contributor to high cholesterol levels in the US.
- borski 3y ago
  Ah yes, the “dermatologist cartel” of untrustworthy white coats. rolls eyes Please provide sources for the evidence you speak of.
  - toolz 3y ago
    It's really not a hard thing to google. > Sunscreen also blocks our skin from making vitamin D, but that’s OK, says the American Academy of Dermatology, which takes a zero-tolerance stance[1] on sun exposure: “You need to protect your skin from the sun every day, even when it’s cloudy,” it advises on its website. Better to slather on sunblock, we’ve all been told, and compensate with vitamin D pills. -- https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science/ https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-... 1: https://www.aad.org/media/stats-vitamin-d https://www.aad.org/media/stats-vitamin-d
    - BigCryo 3y ago
      [dead]
    - myshpa 3y ago
      And now show us list of their sponsors. I'll bet there will be several sunblock manufacturers on it.
      - toolz 3y ago
        I just criticized someone for not doing their own simple google search and now you're asking me to google for you as well? I'm really not sure what result you're hoping for here. You really shouldn't be so sure of anything you're too lazy to validate yourself. If you're too lazy now, chances are you were too lazy to validate it when you formed the opinion to begin with.
        borski 3y ago
        Now this is a lazy argument. “My thing is true, even though the vast majority of medical professionals and societies disagree with me. And I don’t have to prove it to you, as that is best left as an exercise to the reader” is lazy, and a terrible argument. Even if you didn’t validate the established guidelines, that doesn’t actually make you lazy; as humans, we cannot possibly hope to empirically validate every single thing we are told, as that would be madness. We often rely on various sources to validate claims for us by running solid, peer-reviewed studies and then we read those, and the vast majority of those studies do not agree with you, though more studies definitely need to be run, particularly with higher SPF sunblocks and mineral sunblocks.
    - borski 3y ago
      The vast, vast majority of Google results do not support your claims. I’m glad you found one that did, and I’m all for more studies, but “it’s really not that hard to google” is both condescending and doesn’t move the argument forward. You are the one making an argument against the established widespread medical opinion; the onus is on you to prove your argument, not on me to prove your argument for you. https://www.thechildren.com/health-info/conditions-and-illnesses/true-or-false-using-sunscreen-leads-vitamin-d-deficiency https://www.thechildren.com/health-info/conditions-and-illne... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30945275/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30945275/ “ There is little evidence that sunscreen decreases 25(OH)D concentration when used in real-life settings, suggesting that concerns about vitamin D should not negate skin cancer prevention advice. However, there have been no trials of the high-SPF sunscreens that are now widely recommended. What's already known about this topic? Previous experimental studies suggest that sunscreen can block vitamin D production in the skin but use artificially generated ultraviolet radiation with a spectral output unlike that seen in terrestrial sunlight. Nonsystematic reviews of observational studies suggest that use in real life does not cause vitamin D deficiency. What does this study add? This study systematically reviewed all experimental studies, field trials and observational studies for the first time. While the experimental studies support the theoretical risk that sunscreen use may affect vitamin D, the weight of evidence from field trials and observational studies suggests that the risk is low. We highlight the lack of adequate evidence regarding use of the very high sun protection factor sunscreens that are now recommended and widely used.”
      - toolz 3y ago
        What exactly do you think my claims are? I'm not the one who made the original claim, only supported the claim that american dermatologists have a zero tolerance policy for sun exposure. Either you think there's a more representative opinion for American dermatologists than the AAD or what seems more likely is that you don't understand the argument that I was supporting.
        borski 3y ago
        It is entirely possible we got our wires crossed. The evidence I actually wanted proof for was the original commenters’ assertion that sunblock somehow raises cholesterol to unhealthy levels. The quote you chose from the article (which I did read, for what it’s worth, but was also very light on sources) strongly suggested that sunblock blocks Vitamin D production. The science on that is unclear, but prior research suggests it doesn’t; that said, it warrants more research. I took your choice of that quote specifically to mean that was a claim you were making. If that wasn’t the case and you simply meant to show that the AAD suggested not being in the sun without sunblock, then I agree. The science on melanoma being very bad is pretty cut and dry, on the other hand. I never disagreed that American dermatologists tend to follow a “zero tolerance” policy for sun exposure without sunblock. They would very much like you to get sun with sunblock, though.
    - karlzt 3y ago
      >> You need to protect your skin from the sun every day Agree >> even when it’s cloudy Bullshit.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    There’s a lot of doctor cartels in the US that emphatically force singular ideologies - babies sleeping on bellies die instantly, mothers who can’t nurse are creating sickly autistic monsters, everyone must take statins, etc. See parallel comment for source, or visit a dermatologist.
    - borski 3y ago
      There is no cartel that says babies sleeping on their bellies die instantly, or that mothers who don’t breastfeed are creating sickly autistic monsters. Literally not a single doctor who should be allowed to practice has said any of that, as it is far too extreme and one sided. Investigating those issues? Sure. Possibly even believing it’s safer to sleep a baby not on their belly, or that mothers should breastfeed if they can because it is likely to be healthier for the baby? Absolutely. But almost the entirety of your comment is an appeal to extremes, which is a logical fallacy.
- jb1991 3y ago
  This is not an American centric view. Dermatologists in many countries throughout Europe, especially northern countries, strongly advise the use of sunblock.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  The high cholesterol level is likely correlated to vitamin d. A lot of these studies came out of heart disease investigations within the black community. In the US there is just more compared to West Africa, and after controlling for weight, income, diet, etc., they guessed the difference was likely sunlight and outdoor time. Followup studies found similar findings, albeit less pronounced with white and middle eastern people.
petesergeant 3y ago
The UK is much higher North than most of the US, and as a result the UV Index is pretty different: https://www.grida.no/resources/7130 https://www.grida.no/resources/7130 Note that it’s the same as Spain in the northern-most of the continental US, same as Morocco in the middle, and same as Dubai in the south. Americans have far more need for sun-screen than Brits do
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jb1991 3y ago
  In general, norther countries need more protection from the sun, not less. The rates of skin cancer go up significantly as you move north. My guess is partly cultural, but I don't know for sure the cause. When it is dark all winter, people want to spend as much time in the sun as they can during summer, perhaps. The fact that you also get more natural summer exposure due to longer days is probably part of it.
zeristor 3y ago
I went for a six hour walk in the rain in April and got sunburnt in the UK. I was surprised.
- sacnoradhq 3y ago
  Clouds attenuate UV-A in unexpected ways. UV-B and -C leads to aging and skin cancer. UV light is also bad for the eyes. https://www.americanscientist.org/article/sunshine-on-a-cloudy-day https://www.americanscientist.org/article/sunshine-on-a-clou... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10872925/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10872925/
  - News-Dog 3y ago
    Healthy Sun Exposure[1,2] depends on your Latitude[3], Hemisphere[4,5], Time of Day (Dawn & Dusk), Exposure Time, Skin and Eye Type[6], Coverings (Clothing, Sunscreen, UV Filtering Glasses)[7,8] [1] Health Effects of Sunlight Exposure : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exp... [2] Ultraviolet - Human Health-related effects : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Human_health-related_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Human_health-relat... [3] Latitude : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude [4] Ozone Depletion - Effects : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Effects [5] NASA - Ozone Watch : https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ [6] Health Effects of Sunlight Exposure - Benefits of Optic Exposure & Effects on Eyes : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exposure#Benefits_of_optic_exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exp... [7] Sunscreen : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen [8] Ultraviolet - Sunscreen Safety Debate : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Sunscreen_safety_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Sunscreen_safety_d...
    - sacnoradhq 3y ago
      Ozone: hey, at least we managed to ban CFCs internationally. If we can do that, it's confusing how we can't incrementally tackle climate change with selective international agreements that would make the most impact for the socio-economic burden.
sacnoradhq 3y ago
This is how to get skin cancer like malignant melanoma and how to age one's skin. Anyone not intent on looking old prematurely uses sunscreen.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  Looking "young" past a certain age just looks weird and creepy anyway.
jb1991 3y ago
This is a very common attitude in northern Europe, but it’s dangerous. I recently saw a dermatologist, I live at approximately the same latitude as the UK, east of there. He strongly advised sunblock, especially for children. You so very rarely see children wearing it during the summer. You are really playing with your health if you ignore these dangers. Here are some maps of the effect of sun exposure on skin cancer as you move north through Europe: https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pdf/factsheets/Melanoma_cancer_en.pdf https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pdf/factsheets/Melanoma_cancer...

fnordpiglet 3y ago

The dermatologist cartel in the US advices zero unprotected sun exposure. There’s evidence this is a contributor to high cholesterol levels in the US.

borski 3y ago
Ah yes, the “dermatologist cartel” of untrustworthy white coats. rolls eyes Please provide sources for the evidence you speak of.
- toolz 3y ago
  It's really not a hard thing to google. > Sunscreen also blocks our skin from making vitamin D, but that’s OK, says the American Academy of Dermatology, which takes a zero-tolerance stance[1] on sun exposure: “You need to protect your skin from the sun every day, even when it’s cloudy,” it advises on its website. Better to slather on sunblock, we’ve all been told, and compensate with vitamin D pills. -- https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science/ https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-... 1: https://www.aad.org/media/stats-vitamin-d https://www.aad.org/media/stats-vitamin-d
  - BigCryo 3y ago
    [dead]
  - myshpa 3y ago
    And now show us list of their sponsors. I'll bet there will be several sunblock manufacturers on it.
    - toolz 3y ago
      I just criticized someone for not doing their own simple google search and now you're asking me to google for you as well? I'm really not sure what result you're hoping for here. You really shouldn't be so sure of anything you're too lazy to validate yourself. If you're too lazy now, chances are you were too lazy to validate it when you formed the opinion to begin with.
      - borski 3y ago
        Now this is a lazy argument. “My thing is true, even though the vast majority of medical professionals and societies disagree with me. And I don’t have to prove it to you, as that is best left as an exercise to the reader” is lazy, and a terrible argument. Even if you didn’t validate the established guidelines, that doesn’t actually make you lazy; as humans, we cannot possibly hope to empirically validate every single thing we are told, as that would be madness. We often rely on various sources to validate claims for us by running solid, peer-reviewed studies and then we read those, and the vast majority of those studies do not agree with you, though more studies definitely need to be run, particularly with higher SPF sunblocks and mineral sunblocks.
  - borski 3y ago
    The vast, vast majority of Google results do not support your claims. I’m glad you found one that did, and I’m all for more studies, but “it’s really not that hard to google” is both condescending and doesn’t move the argument forward. You are the one making an argument against the established widespread medical opinion; the onus is on you to prove your argument, not on me to prove your argument for you. https://www.thechildren.com/health-info/conditions-and-illnesses/true-or-false-using-sunscreen-leads-vitamin-d-deficiency https://www.thechildren.com/health-info/conditions-and-illne... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30945275/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30945275/ “ There is little evidence that sunscreen decreases 25(OH)D concentration when used in real-life settings, suggesting that concerns about vitamin D should not negate skin cancer prevention advice. However, there have been no trials of the high-SPF sunscreens that are now widely recommended. What's already known about this topic? Previous experimental studies suggest that sunscreen can block vitamin D production in the skin but use artificially generated ultraviolet radiation with a spectral output unlike that seen in terrestrial sunlight. Nonsystematic reviews of observational studies suggest that use in real life does not cause vitamin D deficiency. What does this study add? This study systematically reviewed all experimental studies, field trials and observational studies for the first time. While the experimental studies support the theoretical risk that sunscreen use may affect vitamin D, the weight of evidence from field trials and observational studies suggests that the risk is low. We highlight the lack of adequate evidence regarding use of the very high sun protection factor sunscreens that are now recommended and widely used.”
    - toolz 3y ago
      What exactly do you think my claims are? I'm not the one who made the original claim, only supported the claim that american dermatologists have a zero tolerance policy for sun exposure. Either you think there's a more representative opinion for American dermatologists than the AAD or what seems more likely is that you don't understand the argument that I was supporting.
      - borski 3y ago
        It is entirely possible we got our wires crossed. The evidence I actually wanted proof for was the original commenters’ assertion that sunblock somehow raises cholesterol to unhealthy levels. The quote you chose from the article (which I did read, for what it’s worth, but was also very light on sources) strongly suggested that sunblock blocks Vitamin D production. The science on that is unclear, but prior research suggests it doesn’t; that said, it warrants more research. I took your choice of that quote specifically to mean that was a claim you were making. If that wasn’t the case and you simply meant to show that the AAD suggested not being in the sun without sunblock, then I agree. The science on melanoma being very bad is pretty cut and dry, on the other hand. I never disagreed that American dermatologists tend to follow a “zero tolerance” policy for sun exposure without sunblock. They would very much like you to get sun with sunblock, though.
  - karlzt 3y ago
    >> You need to protect your skin from the sun every day Agree >> even when it’s cloudy Bullshit.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  There’s a lot of doctor cartels in the US that emphatically force singular ideologies - babies sleeping on bellies die instantly, mothers who can’t nurse are creating sickly autistic monsters, everyone must take statins, etc. See parallel comment for source, or visit a dermatologist.
  - borski 3y ago
    There is no cartel that says babies sleeping on their bellies die instantly, or that mothers who don’t breastfeed are creating sickly autistic monsters. Literally not a single doctor who should be allowed to practice has said any of that, as it is far too extreme and one sided. Investigating those issues? Sure. Possibly even believing it’s safer to sleep a baby not on their belly, or that mothers should breastfeed if they can because it is likely to be healthier for the baby? Absolutely. But almost the entirety of your comment is an appeal to extremes, which is a logical fallacy.
jb1991 3y ago
This is not an American centric view. Dermatologists in many countries throughout Europe, especially northern countries, strongly advise the use of sunblock.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
The high cholesterol level is likely correlated to vitamin d. A lot of these studies came out of heart disease investigations within the black community. In the US there is just more compared to West Africa, and after controlling for weight, income, diet, etc., they guessed the difference was likely sunlight and outdoor time. Followup studies found similar findings, albeit less pronounced with white and middle eastern people.

petesergeant 3y ago

The UK is much higher North than most of the US, and as a result the UV Index is pretty different: https://www.grida.no/resources/7130 https://www.grida.no/resources/7130 Note that it’s the same as Spain in the northern-most of the continental US, same as Morocco in the middle, and same as Dubai in the south. Americans have far more need for sun-screen than Brits do

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jb1991 3y ago
In general, norther countries need more protection from the sun, not less. The rates of skin cancer go up significantly as you move north. My guess is partly cultural, but I don't know for sure the cause. When it is dark all winter, people want to spend as much time in the sun as they can during summer, perhaps. The fact that you also get more natural summer exposure due to longer days is probably part of it.

zeristor 3y ago

I went for a six hour walk in the rain in April and got sunburnt in the UK. I was surprised.

sacnoradhq 3y ago
Clouds attenuate UV-A in unexpected ways. UV-B and -C leads to aging and skin cancer. UV light is also bad for the eyes. https://www.americanscientist.org/article/sunshine-on-a-cloudy-day https://www.americanscientist.org/article/sunshine-on-a-clou... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10872925/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10872925/
- News-Dog 3y ago
  Healthy Sun Exposure[1,2] depends on your Latitude[3], Hemisphere[4,5], Time of Day (Dawn & Dusk), Exposure Time, Skin and Eye Type[6], Coverings (Clothing, Sunscreen, UV Filtering Glasses)[7,8] [1] Health Effects of Sunlight Exposure : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exp... [2] Ultraviolet - Human Health-related effects : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Human_health-related_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Human_health-relat... [3] Latitude : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude [4] Ozone Depletion - Effects : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Effects [5] NASA - Ozone Watch : https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ [6] Health Effects of Sunlight Exposure - Benefits of Optic Exposure & Effects on Eyes : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exposure#Benefits_of_optic_exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exp... [7] Sunscreen : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen [8] Ultraviolet - Sunscreen Safety Debate : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Sunscreen_safety_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Sunscreen_safety_d...
  - sacnoradhq 3y ago
    Ozone: hey, at least we managed to ban CFCs internationally. If we can do that, it's confusing how we can't incrementally tackle climate change with selective international agreements that would make the most impact for the socio-economic burden.

sacnoradhq 3y ago

This is how to get skin cancer like malignant melanoma and how to age one's skin. Anyone not intent on looking old prematurely uses sunscreen.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
Looking "young" past a certain age just looks weird and creepy anyway.

jb1991 3y ago

This is a very common attitude in northern Europe, but it’s dangerous. I recently saw a dermatologist, I live at approximately the same latitude as the UK, east of there. He strongly advised sunblock, especially for children. You so very rarely see children wearing it during the summer. You are really playing with your health if you ignore these dangers. Here are some maps of the effect of sun exposure on skin cancer as you move north through Europe: https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pdf/factsheets/Melanoma_cancer_en.pdf https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pdf/factsheets/Melanoma_cancer...