6 ms·

Steel Bank Common Lisp 2.3.5 released

130 points by mm007emko 3y ago

vindarel 3y ago
For those who didn't follow, some news from 2022: - SBCL is now callable as a shared library - SIMD support - faster (de)compression with zstd - TRACE supports tracing macro functions, compiler-macro functions, individual methods and local functions (flet and labels) - the SBCL repository reached 20,000 commits. - Prebuilt SBCL binary for Android (Termux) (unofficial) https://lisp-journey.gitlab.io/blog/these-years-in-common-lisp-2022-in-review/#implementations https://lisp-journey.gitlab.io/blog/these-years-in-common-li...
- ravi-delia 3y ago
  SIMD support is huge, and if you're willing to do a little hacking (SBCL is very easy to extend) you can even use it without the intrinsics
  - thoi23u4o3434 3y ago
    In fairness, "SIMD support" is not exactly "the compiler can reduce code to AVX instructions" but more like "you can now write non-portable custom assembly-like code to make your code faster".
    - smegsicle 3y ago
      but i assume a somewhat nicer interface than the internal VOP intrinsic stuff that sbcl has always had
    - rice7th 3y ago
      Still better than no SIMD at all imo
      - koito17 3y ago
        Yup. I used to use Clozure CL all the time, but since the code I write tends to involve lots of number crunching, SB-SIMD and Loopus are indispensible. Even before SB-SIMD, SBCL has always seemed like the best Common Lisp implementation for any arithmetic. Or at least this seems to be case when you benchmark CCL against it :)
    - ravi-delia 3y ago
      That's what I mean by "willing to hack"! Getting the compiler to use SIMD instructions is actually pretty easy- you just specify where to use them and let it handle them. Then you pinky promise that your array really is made of floats and turn safety off.
dmpk2k 3y ago
I haven't looked in a while, so I'm wondering what SBCL's GC latency profile is like nowadays. IIRC, it used to be a non-incremental STW conservative GC, which is a bit unfortunate.
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  This might align with your interest, from 2023. https://applied-langua.ge/~hayley/swcl-gc.pdf https://applied-langua.ge/~hayley/swcl-gc.pdf
  - dmpk2k 3y ago
    Thank you!
  - nickpsecurity 3y ago
    Which is itself based on Immix which was really neat: https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6120/2019fa/blog/immix/ https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6120/2019fa/blog/immix/
    - jjtheblunt 3y ago
      Cool!
- vindarel 3y ago
  It's at least good enough to release a game on Steam. Here's an experience report: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Shinmera/talks/master/els2023-kandria/paper.pdf https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Shinmera/talks/master/els2... (https://kandria.com/ https://kandria.com/) > Overall we have needed to do surprisingly little actual performance analysis and optimisation work to make Kandria run well. This is definitely in large part thanks to SBCL’s quite good native code compiler and type inference systems, and the prior work we’ve done to design critical libraries to not be completely obscene in terms of their performance characteristics. > […]
- Archit3ch 3y ago
  Follow-up question: is there a way to "freeze" the GC? As in, I've done all my allocations, now I want to run a main loop uninterrupted, and force clean up inside at_exit().
reikonomusha 3y ago
For such a small team developing SBCL, it has been hugely stable, consistent, and advancing for years. SBCL has many ways it could improve, but it definitely exceeds most bars of quality for serious—even commercial—projects.
- tmountain 3y ago
  These kind of projects always impress me. Is it commercially backed or just a labor of love for the maintainers?
  - reikonomusha 3y ago
    It's a mix of volunteer work, contract work, and contributions from paid employees. Google historically has been a big contributor since they use SBCL for Google Flights.
    - mepian 3y ago
      Wasn't ITA Software using CCL before their acquisition by Google? I wonder why they switched to SBCL. Right now CCL seems to be rather understaffed but this wasn't the case when they switched, as far as I know.
      - ratzkewatzke 3y ago
        Back in 2009, before the acquisition, a developer ITA software presented at the SBCL workshop (audio here: http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl10/materials/cracauer-talk.ogg http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl10/materials/cracauer-talk.ogg), talking about the company's use of SBCL. They'd also talked about using CCL; the last I heard was that they used one on desktops, the other in prod deployments.
        eep_social 3y ago
        CCL was primarily used for another project, and the decision to do so was dramatic and made many people unhappy. This thread has some juicy details from the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=911163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=911163

130 points by mm007emko 3y ago

For those who didn't follow, some news from 2022: - SBCL is now callable as a shared library - SIMD support - faster (de)compression with zstd - TRACE supports tracing macro functions, compiler-macro functions, individual methods and local functions (flet and labels) - the SBCL repository reached 20,000 commits. - Prebuilt SBCL binary for Android (Termux) (unofficial) https://lisp-journey.gitlab.io/blog/these-years-in-common-lisp-2022-in-review/#implementations https://lisp-journey.gitlab.io/blog/these-years-in-common-li...

ravi-delia 3y ago
SIMD support is huge, and if you're willing to do a little hacking (SBCL is very easy to extend) you can even use it without the intrinsics
- thoi23u4o3434 3y ago
  In fairness, "SIMD support" is not exactly "the compiler can reduce code to AVX instructions" but more like "you can now write non-portable custom assembly-like code to make your code faster".
  - smegsicle 3y ago
    but i assume a somewhat nicer interface than the internal VOP intrinsic stuff that sbcl has always had
  - rice7th 3y ago
    Still better than no SIMD at all imo
    - koito17 3y ago
      Yup. I used to use Clozure CL all the time, but since the code I write tends to involve lots of number crunching, SB-SIMD and Loopus are indispensible. Even before SB-SIMD, SBCL has always seemed like the best Common Lisp implementation for any arithmetic. Or at least this seems to be case when you benchmark CCL against it :)
  - ravi-delia 3y ago
    That's what I mean by "willing to hack"! Getting the compiler to use SIMD instructions is actually pretty easy- you just specify where to use them and let it handle them. Then you pinky promise that your array really is made of floats and turn safety off.

dmpk2k 3y ago

I haven't looked in a while, so I'm wondering what SBCL's GC latency profile is like nowadays. IIRC, it used to be a non-incremental STW conservative GC, which is a bit unfortunate.

jjtheblunt 3y ago
This might align with your interest, from 2023. https://applied-langua.ge/~hayley/swcl-gc.pdf https://applied-langua.ge/~hayley/swcl-gc.pdf
- dmpk2k 3y ago
  Thank you!
- nickpsecurity 3y ago
  Which is itself based on Immix which was really neat: https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6120/2019fa/blog/immix/ https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6120/2019fa/blog/immix/
  - jjtheblunt 3y ago
    Cool!
vindarel 3y ago
It's at least good enough to release a game on Steam. Here's an experience report: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Shinmera/talks/master/els2023-kandria/paper.pdf https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Shinmera/talks/master/els2... (https://kandria.com/ https://kandria.com/) > Overall we have needed to do surprisingly little actual performance analysis and optimisation work to make Kandria run well. This is definitely in large part thanks to SBCL’s quite good native code compiler and type inference systems, and the prior work we’ve done to design critical libraries to not be completely obscene in terms of their performance characteristics. > […]
Archit3ch 3y ago
Follow-up question: is there a way to "freeze" the GC? As in, I've done all my allocations, now I want to run a main loop uninterrupted, and force clean up inside at_exit().

reikonomusha 3y ago

For such a small team developing SBCL, it has been hugely stable, consistent, and advancing for years. SBCL has many ways it could improve, but it definitely exceeds most bars of quality for serious—even commercial—projects.

tmountain 3y ago
These kind of projects always impress me. Is it commercially backed or just a labor of love for the maintainers?
- reikonomusha 3y ago
  It's a mix of volunteer work, contract work, and contributions from paid employees. Google historically has been a big contributor since they use SBCL for Google Flights.
  - mepian 3y ago
    Wasn't ITA Software using CCL before their acquisition by Google? I wonder why they switched to SBCL. Right now CCL seems to be rather understaffed but this wasn't the case when they switched, as far as I know.
    - ratzkewatzke 3y ago
      Back in 2009, before the acquisition, a developer ITA software presented at the SBCL workshop (audio here: http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl10/materials/cracauer-talk.ogg http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl10/materials/cracauer-talk.ogg), talking about the company's use of SBCL. They'd also talked about using CCL; the last I heard was that they used one on desktops, the other in prod deployments.
      - eep_social 3y ago
        CCL was primarily used for another project, and the decision to do so was dramatic and made many people unhappy. This thread has some juicy details from the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=911163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=911163