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> downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully Who would have suspected this was racially motivated? Not to defend any actions by anyone, but a keynote is

> downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully Who would have suspected this was racially motivated? Not to defend any actions by anyone, but a keynote is an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it's a small component of a bigger update/forecast). That said once the decision was made they should have gone through with it.

ra1231963 3y ago
> who would have suspected this was racially motivated? For the last several years, there are many people and groups who have gotten tremendous positive feedback from being a victim. So, many people would jump to this conclusion for outrage, sympathy, and signaling their virtue. Thankfully, it seems it may be coming to an end now since it’s disruptive and at odds with reality.
- icelancer 3y ago
  > Thankfully, it seems it may be coming to an end now since it’s disruptive and at odds with reality. I hope you are right. I'm less optimistic.
- krainboltgreene 3y ago
  > there are many people and groups who have gotten tremendous positive feedback from being a victim. Just making shit up to get mad about.
chippiewill 3y ago
It's not that unusual. Herb Sutter's 2022 CppCon keynote was on a prototype redesign of the C++ syntax/language.
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  Cool, thanks to know there was precedence. I've never seen one, but to be fair I don't have a comprehensive experience seeing every keynote :) My general feeling is that keynotes are for "setting the tone" of the conference/conference day.
  - tialaramex 3y ago
    Bigger conferences tend to put two particular keynote talks in. Something for people to discuss among themselves over the course of the conference, and then something to take away afterwards. I watch a lot of conference videos, but I don't attend many conferences, I don't get value out of the so-called "Hallway track" and I dislike commercial air travel which limits where I could go anyway. I like where I live, that's why I bought it, so remaining here is great.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  That's even one of a long series of such talks Herb has given, about features Herb thinks C++ should have, but it doesn't, and in all but one case those proposals Herb made were not adopted in the C++ standard. If your language isn't intending to just remain stuck forever in its current state, a conference is a reasonable place to explain a proposed direction so that other people know where you think it should go. Not every talk has to be speculative, but a speculative keynote seems fine to me so long as it's obvious that we're not in an alternate dimension where this works in Rust already, which I see no sign JeanHyde was intending.
- toyg 3y ago
  Yeah, and plenty of Python keynotes on umpteen projects to overcome the GIL - GIL that is still there.
gishbunker 3y ago
If someone is in the minority, it's totally reasonable to ask, "could their minority status be a factor in their disenfranchisement?" Then you look at the data, and in this case come to the conclusion, "no, it was not a factor." That seems healthy and normal, it's not outrage bait to acknowledge that yes, sometimes minorities are at a disadvantage or are under represented. It's just as fallacious to say "of course race was a factor" as it is to say "of course race was not a factor". Much better to ask openly, evaluate the data, and make an informed conclusion.
- nomel 3y ago
  > sometimes minorities are at a disadvantage or are under represented What does “under represented” mean, in a small, hopefully merit based, org?
  - gishbunker 3y ago
    Exactly what it says on the tin. Where do rustconf/rust lang leadership diverge from rust users. If 40% of rust devs are women, but only 10% of leadership is women, they are an under represented group in leadership. There might be reasonable reasons! The existence of an under represented group isn't wrong, it's just a time to ask, "why is it this way?" To be clear, I'm not saying there should be no under represented groups. But if there are, we should just be deliberate about understanding why. Are there systemic reasons where merit isn't being considered?
    - nomel 3y ago
      The rust leadership group is very small, so statistical representation isn’t really possible, other than luck. That’s just the reality of the maths. Do you think proportional representation should be forced?
      - gishbunker 3y ago
        > Do you think proportional representation should be forced? What gives you the impression I would want that? I said, quite clearly, that deviations from the norm are worth asking questions about, but those deviations can be fine. Do you think they should be forced?
jcranmer 3y ago
> a keynote is an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it's a small component of a bigger update/forecast). Quite the opposite, I believe. Since a keynote is seen by a dramatically larger slice of the audience, it's a good slot for talks meant to provoke thoughts and discussion, even if that discussion isn't necessarily one you agree with.
- sshine 3y ago
  Seconded. Rust is a great language with a good macro system that gets used more than it needs to than if it had a stronger type system. To succeed at improving the language, contributors must strike a balance between approaching the PL research frontier while remaining a practical language. ThePHD’s talk is a take on that trajectory that appears Pareto-optimal. It’s a really good subject for a keynote, I think.

ra1231963 3y ago

> who would have suspected this was racially motivated? For the last several years, there are many people and groups who have gotten tremendous positive feedback from being a victim. So, many people would jump to this conclusion for outrage, sympathy, and signaling their virtue. Thankfully, it seems it may be coming to an end now since it’s disruptive and at odds with reality.

icelancer 3y ago
> Thankfully, it seems it may be coming to an end now since it’s disruptive and at odds with reality. I hope you are right. I'm less optimistic.
krainboltgreene 3y ago
> there are many people and groups who have gotten tremendous positive feedback from being a victim. Just making shit up to get mad about.

chippiewill 3y ago

It's not that unusual. Herb Sutter's 2022 CppCon keynote was on a prototype redesign of the C++ syntax/language.

throwawaymaths 3y ago
Cool, thanks to know there was precedence. I've never seen one, but to be fair I don't have a comprehensive experience seeing every keynote :) My general feeling is that keynotes are for "setting the tone" of the conference/conference day.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  Bigger conferences tend to put two particular keynote talks in. Something for people to discuss among themselves over the course of the conference, and then something to take away afterwards. I watch a lot of conference videos, but I don't attend many conferences, I don't get value out of the so-called "Hallway track" and I dislike commercial air travel which limits where I could go anyway. I like where I live, that's why I bought it, so remaining here is great.
tialaramex 3y ago
That's even one of a long series of such talks Herb has given, about features Herb thinks C++ should have, but it doesn't, and in all but one case those proposals Herb made were not adopted in the C++ standard. If your language isn't intending to just remain stuck forever in its current state, a conference is a reasonable place to explain a proposed direction so that other people know where you think it should go. Not every talk has to be speculative, but a speculative keynote seems fine to me so long as it's obvious that we're not in an alternate dimension where this works in Rust already, which I see no sign JeanHyde was intending.
toyg 3y ago
Yeah, and plenty of Python keynotes on umpteen projects to overcome the GIL - GIL that is still there.

gishbunker 3y ago

If someone is in the minority, it's totally reasonable to ask, "could their minority status be a factor in their disenfranchisement?" Then you look at the data, and in this case come to the conclusion, "no, it was not a factor." That seems healthy and normal, it's not outrage bait to acknowledge that yes, sometimes minorities are at a disadvantage or are under represented. It's just as fallacious to say "of course race was a factor" as it is to say "of course race was not a factor". Much better to ask openly, evaluate the data, and make an informed conclusion.

nomel 3y ago
> sometimes minorities are at a disadvantage or are under represented What does “under represented” mean, in a small, hopefully merit based, org?
- gishbunker 3y ago
  Exactly what it says on the tin. Where do rustconf/rust lang leadership diverge from rust users. If 40% of rust devs are women, but only 10% of leadership is women, they are an under represented group in leadership. There might be reasonable reasons! The existence of an under represented group isn't wrong, it's just a time to ask, "why is it this way?" To be clear, I'm not saying there should be no under represented groups. But if there are, we should just be deliberate about understanding why. Are there systemic reasons where merit isn't being considered?
  - nomel 3y ago
    The rust leadership group is very small, so statistical representation isn’t really possible, other than luck. That’s just the reality of the maths. Do you think proportional representation should be forced?
    - gishbunker 3y ago
      > Do you think proportional representation should be forced? What gives you the impression I would want that? I said, quite clearly, that deviations from the norm are worth asking questions about, but those deviations can be fine. Do you think they should be forced?

jcranmer 3y ago

> a keynote is an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it's a small component of a bigger update/forecast). Quite the opposite, I believe. Since a keynote is seen by a dramatically larger slice of the audience, it's a good slot for talks meant to provoke thoughts and discussion, even if that discussion isn't necessarily one you agree with.

sshine 3y ago
Seconded. Rust is a great language with a good macro system that gets used more than it needs to than if it had a stronger type system. To succeed at improving the language, contributors must strike a balance between approaching the PL research frontier while remaining a practical language. ThePHD’s talk is a take on that trajectory that appears Pareto-optimal. It’s a really good subject for a keynote, I think.