5 ms·

This is why, even though as a programmer I’m congenitally unfit for it, I go outside sometimes. Sunlight also gives you vitamin D, and has all sorts of other be

This is why, even though as a programmer I’m congenitally unfit for it, I go outside sometimes. Sunlight also gives you vitamin D, and has all sorts of other benefits. As I don’t go outside often I’m not particularly concerned about skin cancer and am generally skeptical of the idea that terrestrial life is maladapted to the Sun. I buy over exposure has bad long term effects, but the current view seems to be you need to wear sunblock for any level of exposure. That just seems wildly unlikely and the fact the body needs sunlight to produce essential stuff like vitamin D further reinforces my belief that we are over correcting into unhealthy zones.

Azure88 3y ago
As a person not from america, the fact that this is the main view is worrying to me. Over here in the UK it's 100% normal to just use the rule of thumb that as long as you try not to get burnt, it's healthy to get some sun. No sunblock needed unless you know you'll be out in it for many hours without shade like if you go to the beach or a long walk.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  The dermatologist cartel in the US advices zero unprotected sun exposure. There’s evidence this is a contributor to high cholesterol levels in the US.
  - borski 3y ago
    Ah yes, the “dermatologist cartel” of untrustworthy white coats. rolls eyes Please provide sources for the evidence you speak of.
    - toolz 3y ago
      It's really not a hard thing to google. > Sunscreen also blocks our skin from making vitamin D, but that’s OK, says the American Academy of Dermatology, which takes a zero-tolerance stance[1] on sun exposure: “You need to protect your skin from the sun every day, even when it’s cloudy,” it advises on its website. Better to slather on sunblock, we’ve all been told, and compensate with vitamin D pills. -- https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science/ https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-... 1: https://www.aad.org/media/stats-vitamin-d https://www.aad.org/media/stats-vitamin-d
      - BigCryo 3y ago
        [dead]
      - myshpa 3y ago
        And now show us list of their sponsors. I'll bet there will be several sunblock manufacturers on it.
        toolz 3y ago
        I just criticized someone for not doing their own simple google search and now you're asking me to google for you as well? I'm really not sure what result you're hoping for here. You really shouldn't be so sure of anything you're too lazy to validate yourself. If you're too lazy now, chances are you were too lazy to validate it when you formed the opinion to begin with.
        borski 3y ago
        Now this is a lazy argument. “My thing is true, even though the vast majority of medical professionals and societies disagree with me. And I don’t have to prove it to you, as that is best left as an exercise to the reader” is lazy, and a terrible argument. Even if you didn’t validate the established guidelines, that doesn’t actually make you lazy; as humans, we cannot possibly hope to empirically validate every single thing we are told, as that would be madness. We often rely on various sources to validate claims for us by running solid, peer-reviewed studies and then we read those, and the vast majority of those studies do not agree with you, though more studies definitely need to be run, particularly with higher SPF sunblocks and mineral sunblocks.
      - borski 3y ago
        The vast, vast majority of Google results do not support your claims. I’m glad you found one that did, and I’m all for more studies, but “it’s really not that hard to google” is both condescending and doesn’t move the argument forward. You are the one making an argument against the established widespread medical opinion; the onus is on you to prove your argument, not on me to prove your argument for you. https://www.thechildren.com/health-info/conditions-and-illnesses/true-or-false-using-sunscreen-leads-vitamin-d-deficiency https://www.thechildren.com/health-info/conditions-and-illne... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30945275/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30945275/ “ There is little evidence that sunscreen decreases 25(OH)D concentration when used in real-life settings, suggesting that concerns about vitamin D should not negate skin cancer prevention advice. However, there have been no trials of the high-SPF sunscreens that are now widely recommended. What's already known about this topic? Previous experimental studies suggest that sunscreen can block vitamin D production in the skin but use artificially generated ultraviolet radiation with a spectral output unlike that seen in terrestrial sunlight. Nonsystematic reviews of observational studies suggest that use in real life does not cause vitamin D deficiency. What does this study add? This study systematically reviewed all experimental studies, field trials and observational studies for the first time. While the experimental studies support the theoretical risk that sunscreen use may affect vitamin D, the weight of evidence from field trials and observational studies suggests that the risk is low. We highlight the lack of adequate evidence regarding use of the very high sun protection factor sunscreens that are now recommended and widely used.”
    - fnordpiglet 3y ago
      There’s a lot of doctor cartels in the US that emphatically force singular ideologies - babies sleeping on bellies die instantly, mothers who can’t nurse are creating sickly autistic monsters, everyone must take statins, etc. See parallel comment for source, or visit a dermatologist.
      - borski 3y ago
        There is no cartel that says babies sleeping on their bellies die instantly, or that mothers who don’t breastfeed are creating sickly autistic monsters. Literally not a single doctor who should be allowed to practice has said any of that, as it is far too extreme and one sided. Investigating those issues? Sure. Possibly even believing it’s safer to sleep a baby not on their belly, or that mothers should breastfeed if they can because it is likely to be healthier for the baby? Absolutely. But almost the entirety of your comment is an appeal to extremes, which is a logical fallacy.
  - jb1991 3y ago
    This is not an American centric view. Dermatologists in many countries throughout Europe, especially northern countries, strongly advise the use of sunblock.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    The high cholesterol level is likely correlated to vitamin d. A lot of these studies came out of heart disease investigations within the black community. In the US there is just more compared to West Africa, and after controlling for weight, income, diet, etc., they guessed the difference was likely sunlight and outdoor time. Followup studies found similar findings, albeit less pronounced with white and middle eastern people.
- petesergeant 3y ago
  The UK is much higher North than most of the US, and as a result the UV Index is pretty different: https://www.grida.no/resources/7130 https://www.grida.no/resources/7130 Note that it’s the same as Spain in the northern-most of the continental US, same as Morocco in the middle, and same as Dubai in the south. Americans have far more need for sun-screen than Brits do
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - jb1991 3y ago
    In general, norther countries need more protection from the sun, not less. The rates of skin cancer go up significantly as you move north. My guess is partly cultural, but I don't know for sure the cause. When it is dark all winter, people want to spend as much time in the sun as they can during summer, perhaps. The fact that you also get more natural summer exposure due to longer days is probably part of it.
- zeristor 3y ago
  I went for a six hour walk in the rain in April and got sunburnt in the UK. I was surprised.
  - sacnoradhq 3y ago
    Clouds attenuate UV-A in unexpected ways. UV-B and -C leads to aging and skin cancer. UV light is also bad for the eyes. https://www.americanscientist.org/article/sunshine-on-a-cloudy-day https://www.americanscientist.org/article/sunshine-on-a-clou... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10872925/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10872925/
    - News-Dog 3y ago
      Healthy Sun Exposure[1,2] depends on your Latitude[3], Hemisphere[4,5], Time of Day (Dawn & Dusk), Exposure Time, Skin and Eye Type[6], Coverings (Clothing, Sunscreen, UV Filtering Glasses)[7,8] [1] Health Effects of Sunlight Exposure : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exp... [2] Ultraviolet - Human Health-related effects : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Human_health-related_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Human_health-relat... [3] Latitude : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude [4] Ozone Depletion - Effects : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Effects [5] NASA - Ozone Watch : https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ [6] Health Effects of Sunlight Exposure - Benefits of Optic Exposure & Effects on Eyes : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exposure#Benefits_of_optic_exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exp... [7] Sunscreen : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen [8] Ultraviolet - Sunscreen Safety Debate : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Sunscreen_safety_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Sunscreen_safety_d...
      - sacnoradhq 3y ago
        Ozone: hey, at least we managed to ban CFCs internationally. If we can do that, it's confusing how we can't incrementally tackle climate change with selective international agreements that would make the most impact for the socio-economic burden.
- sacnoradhq 3y ago
  This is how to get skin cancer like malignant melanoma and how to age one's skin. Anyone not intent on looking old prematurely uses sunscreen.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    Looking "young" past a certain age just looks weird and creepy anyway.
- jb1991 3y ago
  This is a very common attitude in northern Europe, but it’s dangerous. I recently saw a dermatologist, I live at approximately the same latitude as the UK, east of there. He strongly advised sunblock, especially for children. You so very rarely see children wearing it during the summer. You are really playing with your health if you ignore these dangers. Here are some maps of the effect of sun exposure on skin cancer as you move north through Europe: https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pdf/factsheets/Melanoma_cancer_en.pdf https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pdf/factsheets/Melanoma_cancer...
borski 3y ago
Sunblock doesn’t block those beneficial benefits from sunlight; it blocks getting burnt, which can lead to cancer.
- Auracle 3y ago
  You sound awfully certain of that, when some evidence definitely points the other way. This isn’t the article I was looking for but it touches on it: https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science/ https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-...
  - borski 3y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36108241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36108241
- sacnoradhq 3y ago
  UV-A, -B, and -C are bad in different ways. Sunburns skew towards UV-A, while cancer and aging tends to be from UV-B and -C. Vitamin D synthesis results from UV-B exposure.
  - borski 3y ago
    Sure, but as discussed elsewhere in this thread, the studies (at present, which doesn’t mean we won’t learn more in the future) do not support the assertion that sunblock prevents Vitamin D synthesis in any meaningful way, despite what a random blog post might tell you.
    - sacnoradhq 3y ago
      Amen. :) You're preaching to the choir. Health and wellness blogs generally service the theater of the placebo and hivemind ignorance bordering on mysticism.
xupybd 3y ago
I live in NZ. The rest of the planet doesn't live this close to the ozone hole. We have the highest rates of skin cancer in the world. We need to use sun protection at all times. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300553551/nz-has-the-highest-rates-of-melanoma-cases-and-deaths-in-the-world-study-shows https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300553551/nz-has-the...
jiggawatts 3y ago
I saw a summary of an extensive series of studies where the punchline was: "Yes, exposure to the Sun will increase your risk of cancer. Do it anyway."
drbaba 3y ago
My understanding is that the main correlation between sunlight and skin cancer is for sudden exposure to strong sun. If you go outside all year without sunblock (as people used to do back in the day), and thus build up and maintain a natural tan, the cancer risk is very low. But if you sit inside all year and then suddenly go to the beach,l in July, the risk increases.
- mharig 3y ago
  I do not know a single person who died from skin cancer. And only a few who had skin cancer. The prevalence cannot be sufficiently high to justify a hysteria.
Sammi 3y ago
The 1903 Nobel was given to a guy who showed that light cures Lupus, a terrible skin disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Ryberg_Finsen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Ryberg_Finsen It it very well established in science that light is good for you in some many different ways.

Azure88 3y ago

As a person not from america, the fact that this is the main view is worrying to me. Over here in the UK it's 100% normal to just use the rule of thumb that as long as you try not to get burnt, it's healthy to get some sun. No sunblock needed unless you know you'll be out in it for many hours without shade like if you go to the beach or a long walk.

fnordpiglet 3y ago
The dermatologist cartel in the US advices zero unprotected sun exposure. There’s evidence this is a contributor to high cholesterol levels in the US.
- borski 3y ago
  Ah yes, the “dermatologist cartel” of untrustworthy white coats. rolls eyes Please provide sources for the evidence you speak of.
  - toolz 3y ago
    It's really not a hard thing to google. > Sunscreen also blocks our skin from making vitamin D, but that’s OK, says the American Academy of Dermatology, which takes a zero-tolerance stance[1] on sun exposure: “You need to protect your skin from the sun every day, even when it’s cloudy,” it advises on its website. Better to slather on sunblock, we’ve all been told, and compensate with vitamin D pills. -- https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science/ https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-... 1: https://www.aad.org/media/stats-vitamin-d https://www.aad.org/media/stats-vitamin-d
    - BigCryo 3y ago
      [dead]
    - myshpa 3y ago
      And now show us list of their sponsors. I'll bet there will be several sunblock manufacturers on it.
      - toolz 3y ago
        I just criticized someone for not doing their own simple google search and now you're asking me to google for you as well? I'm really not sure what result you're hoping for here. You really shouldn't be so sure of anything you're too lazy to validate yourself. If you're too lazy now, chances are you were too lazy to validate it when you formed the opinion to begin with.
        borski 3y ago
        Now this is a lazy argument. “My thing is true, even though the vast majority of medical professionals and societies disagree with me. And I don’t have to prove it to you, as that is best left as an exercise to the reader” is lazy, and a terrible argument. Even if you didn’t validate the established guidelines, that doesn’t actually make you lazy; as humans, we cannot possibly hope to empirically validate every single thing we are told, as that would be madness. We often rely on various sources to validate claims for us by running solid, peer-reviewed studies and then we read those, and the vast majority of those studies do not agree with you, though more studies definitely need to be run, particularly with higher SPF sunblocks and mineral sunblocks.
    - borski 3y ago
      The vast, vast majority of Google results do not support your claims. I’m glad you found one that did, and I’m all for more studies, but “it’s really not that hard to google” is both condescending and doesn’t move the argument forward. You are the one making an argument against the established widespread medical opinion; the onus is on you to prove your argument, not on me to prove your argument for you. https://www.thechildren.com/health-info/conditions-and-illnesses/true-or-false-using-sunscreen-leads-vitamin-d-deficiency https://www.thechildren.com/health-info/conditions-and-illne... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30945275/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30945275/ “ There is little evidence that sunscreen decreases 25(OH)D concentration when used in real-life settings, suggesting that concerns about vitamin D should not negate skin cancer prevention advice. However, there have been no trials of the high-SPF sunscreens that are now widely recommended. What's already known about this topic? Previous experimental studies suggest that sunscreen can block vitamin D production in the skin but use artificially generated ultraviolet radiation with a spectral output unlike that seen in terrestrial sunlight. Nonsystematic reviews of observational studies suggest that use in real life does not cause vitamin D deficiency. What does this study add? This study systematically reviewed all experimental studies, field trials and observational studies for the first time. While the experimental studies support the theoretical risk that sunscreen use may affect vitamin D, the weight of evidence from field trials and observational studies suggests that the risk is low. We highlight the lack of adequate evidence regarding use of the very high sun protection factor sunscreens that are now recommended and widely used.”
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    There’s a lot of doctor cartels in the US that emphatically force singular ideologies - babies sleeping on bellies die instantly, mothers who can’t nurse are creating sickly autistic monsters, everyone must take statins, etc. See parallel comment for source, or visit a dermatologist.
    - borski 3y ago
      There is no cartel that says babies sleeping on their bellies die instantly, or that mothers who don’t breastfeed are creating sickly autistic monsters. Literally not a single doctor who should be allowed to practice has said any of that, as it is far too extreme and one sided. Investigating those issues? Sure. Possibly even believing it’s safer to sleep a baby not on their belly, or that mothers should breastfeed if they can because it is likely to be healthier for the baby? Absolutely. But almost the entirety of your comment is an appeal to extremes, which is a logical fallacy.
- jb1991 3y ago
  This is not an American centric view. Dermatologists in many countries throughout Europe, especially northern countries, strongly advise the use of sunblock.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  The high cholesterol level is likely correlated to vitamin d. A lot of these studies came out of heart disease investigations within the black community. In the US there is just more compared to West Africa, and after controlling for weight, income, diet, etc., they guessed the difference was likely sunlight and outdoor time. Followup studies found similar findings, albeit less pronounced with white and middle eastern people.
petesergeant 3y ago
The UK is much higher North than most of the US, and as a result the UV Index is pretty different: https://www.grida.no/resources/7130 https://www.grida.no/resources/7130 Note that it’s the same as Spain in the northern-most of the continental US, same as Morocco in the middle, and same as Dubai in the south. Americans have far more need for sun-screen than Brits do
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jb1991 3y ago
  In general, norther countries need more protection from the sun, not less. The rates of skin cancer go up significantly as you move north. My guess is partly cultural, but I don't know for sure the cause. When it is dark all winter, people want to spend as much time in the sun as they can during summer, perhaps. The fact that you also get more natural summer exposure due to longer days is probably part of it.
zeristor 3y ago
I went for a six hour walk in the rain in April and got sunburnt in the UK. I was surprised.
- sacnoradhq 3y ago
  Clouds attenuate UV-A in unexpected ways. UV-B and -C leads to aging and skin cancer. UV light is also bad for the eyes. https://www.americanscientist.org/article/sunshine-on-a-cloudy-day https://www.americanscientist.org/article/sunshine-on-a-clou... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10872925/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10872925/
  - News-Dog 3y ago
    Healthy Sun Exposure[1,2] depends on your Latitude[3], Hemisphere[4,5], Time of Day (Dawn & Dusk), Exposure Time, Skin and Eye Type[6], Coverings (Clothing, Sunscreen, UV Filtering Glasses)[7,8] [1] Health Effects of Sunlight Exposure : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exp... [2] Ultraviolet - Human Health-related effects : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Human_health-related_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Human_health-relat... [3] Latitude : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude [4] Ozone Depletion - Effects : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Effects [5] NASA - Ozone Watch : https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/ [6] Health Effects of Sunlight Exposure - Benefits of Optic Exposure & Effects on Eyes : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exposure#Benefits_of_optic_exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_sunlight_exp... [7] Sunscreen : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen [8] Ultraviolet - Sunscreen Safety Debate : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Sunscreen_safety_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#Sunscreen_safety_d...
    - sacnoradhq 3y ago
      Ozone: hey, at least we managed to ban CFCs internationally. If we can do that, it's confusing how we can't incrementally tackle climate change with selective international agreements that would make the most impact for the socio-economic burden.
sacnoradhq 3y ago
This is how to get skin cancer like malignant melanoma and how to age one's skin. Anyone not intent on looking old prematurely uses sunscreen.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  Looking "young" past a certain age just looks weird and creepy anyway.
jb1991 3y ago
This is a very common attitude in northern Europe, but it’s dangerous. I recently saw a dermatologist, I live at approximately the same latitude as the UK, east of there. He strongly advised sunblock, especially for children. You so very rarely see children wearing it during the summer. You are really playing with your health if you ignore these dangers. Here are some maps of the effect of sun exposure on skin cancer as you move north through Europe: https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pdf/factsheets/Melanoma_cancer_en.pdf https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pdf/factsheets/Melanoma_cancer...

borski 3y ago

Sunblock doesn’t block those beneficial benefits from sunlight; it blocks getting burnt, which can lead to cancer.

Auracle 3y ago
You sound awfully certain of that, when some evidence definitely points the other way. This isn’t the article I was looking for but it touches on it: https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science/ https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/sunscreen-sun-...
- borski 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36108241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36108241
sacnoradhq 3y ago
UV-A, -B, and -C are bad in different ways. Sunburns skew towards UV-A, while cancer and aging tends to be from UV-B and -C. Vitamin D synthesis results from UV-B exposure.
- borski 3y ago
  Sure, but as discussed elsewhere in this thread, the studies (at present, which doesn’t mean we won’t learn more in the future) do not support the assertion that sunblock prevents Vitamin D synthesis in any meaningful way, despite what a random blog post might tell you.
  - sacnoradhq 3y ago
    Amen. :) You're preaching to the choir. Health and wellness blogs generally service the theater of the placebo and hivemind ignorance bordering on mysticism.

xupybd 3y ago

I live in NZ. The rest of the planet doesn't live this close to the ozone hole. We have the highest rates of skin cancer in the world. We need to use sun protection at all times. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300553551/nz-has-the-highest-rates-of-melanoma-cases-and-deaths-in-the-world-study-shows https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300553551/nz-has-the...

jiggawatts 3y ago

I saw a summary of an extensive series of studies where the punchline was: "Yes, exposure to the Sun will increase your risk of cancer. Do it anyway."

drbaba 3y ago

My understanding is that the main correlation between sunlight and skin cancer is for sudden exposure to strong sun. If you go outside all year without sunblock (as people used to do back in the day), and thus build up and maintain a natural tan, the cancer risk is very low. But if you sit inside all year and then suddenly go to the beach,l in July, the risk increases.

mharig 3y ago
I do not know a single person who died from skin cancer. And only a few who had skin cancer. The prevalence cannot be sufficiently high to justify a hysteria.

Sammi 3y ago

The 1903 Nobel was given to a guy who showed that light cures Lupus, a terrible skin disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Ryberg_Finsen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Ryberg_Finsen It it very well established in science that light is good for you in some many different ways.