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I can speak to this in some degree: marriage is much more significant than a negotiated commitment for me personally. A negotiated commitment takes a specific

I can speak to this in some degree: marriage is much more significant than a negotiated commitment for me personally. A negotiated commitment takes a specific form (the terms of the negotiation) but a marriage defines a commitment to be committed. I've heard some folks of my generation say things like "we got divorced because we fell out of love", which sharply contrasts with my view of marriage and falls more in line with a standard committed relationship. To me, a marriage is a commitment to consistently try to fall back in love and work through things, even at those points you might otherwise quit. Granted, I'm a religious guy and my view on marriage is flavored from that perspective, but making the marriage official was certainly key to the commitment for me personally.

paulryanrogers 3y ago
Having known unhappily married and religious family (and leaving the faith myself), I can understand folks falling permanently out of love. And IMO they're likely better apart than locked in decades of fruitless trying. Anyway, thanks for sharing, and I'd agree that a frivolous marriage sounds like a pointless exercise.
- throwaway1492 3y ago
  Falling in or out of love is really a lot of fantasy BS though really. Disney marketing. Anyone in a long term relationship doesn’t love the other all the time, wether married or not. Marriage is about declaring to your social group and each other you’ve decided to strive and commit to something greater than yourself.
  - bscphil 3y ago
    > Marriage is about declaring to your social group and each other you’ve decided to strive and commit to something greater than yourself. I think most people can accept this belief while still thinking that there ought to be an out for two people who find themselves deeply unhappy together for a long period of time. Committing to something should very rarely be an absolute thing, and most people (even those who accept and respect marriage as a social institution) don't think that marriage should be one of those things. That's compatible with thinking (as you say in your OP) that most romantic relationships are shallow and not ultimately very meaningful, and wanting something more.
  - noirbot 3y ago
    Yea, and as someone who's had their social group rent in half twice in recent years because of committed marriages falling apart, I'm pretty happy with less of my friends making me meet their new partner and integrate them into my life before having an acrimonious breakup after 1-5 years. I don't care if they love each other. I care that they're not making me pick sides and often causing me to deal with people I like moving away or quitting common hobbies so they can avoid someone they've gone from loving to loathing.
  - TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
    It really isn't. There are all kinds of valid reasons to get divorced, from partners maturing in different directions, to one partner maturing while the other doesn't, to drug and alcohol additions, to emotional and physical abuse. There are also selfish reasons, including boredom, finding more excitement - but not more depth - with someone else, and festering undiscussed resentment that financial and/or sexual expectations aren't being met. If one person goes down one of those paths and refuses to even discuss it, there's not much the other person can do. It's immature to expect a perfect glowing zero-conflict happy ever after. But it's equally immature to stay committed to something that is clearly dead and may be actively harmful to either or both partners - and perhaps the kids too, if there are any.
PretzelPirate 3y ago
> I can speak to this in some degree As you suggest at the end, this is very much your personal view. My wife and I have been together for almost 20 years, but we've only been married for 2. Our commitment didn't change due to marriage. The only thing that changed was that things got easier from a legal perspective. We no longer need to worry about wills in the case that one of us dies, and we can make medical decisions on behalf of each other if necessary. I suspect that for many people who don't have a religious desire to marry, marriage won't affect their level of commitment. I think this is supported by how often people get divorced.
- fuzzfactor 3y ago
  >together for almost 20 years, but we've only been married for 2. This is the way. When a relationship has been proven for a decade or more, then marriage can be contemplated more realistically.
  - RMPR 3y ago
    > When a relationship has been proven for a decade or more, then marriage can be contemplated more realistically. This sounds good but the data seem to contradict you[0]. It's been known for a long time that people living together are more likely to get a divorce. This study is about re-evaluating if it's still true. All in all, the person you are responding to (and maybe you?) are more likely the exception rather than the norm. But to what extent the exception? 2 years is a pretty short time frame, only time will tell. 0: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jomf.12530?af=R& https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jomf.12530?a...
jemmyw 3y ago
I don't really understand it tbh. I was with my partner for 10 years before we got married (for a visa) and we had 2 kids by then. It never occurred to me that I wasn't committed in every sense, and having that piece of paper made no difference. I kind of think that if you feel you need that official thing then it's a signal of not really being committed or loving in the first place, but that's more of a belief I'd turn on myself than think about you or others.
- fuzzfactor 3y ago
  When an entrepreneur or other potentially risk-taking individual gets married, I silently think "Congratulations, now if one of you craters financially, you're both ruined." What I enjoy most is a more faithful & trusting relationship than most marriages anyway. Also depends on how much you like having a third party(s) involved in your relationship, for some people that's all they know or prefer, others not so much. Institutions can be so much bigger than any two people so the influence can still be outsized even without marriage. "We don't need no piece of paper from the city hall . . ." --Joni Mitchell

paulryanrogers 3y ago

Having known unhappily married and religious family (and leaving the faith myself), I can understand folks falling permanently out of love. And IMO they're likely better apart than locked in decades of fruitless trying. Anyway, thanks for sharing, and I'd agree that a frivolous marriage sounds like a pointless exercise.

throwaway1492 3y ago
Falling in or out of love is really a lot of fantasy BS though really. Disney marketing. Anyone in a long term relationship doesn’t love the other all the time, wether married or not. Marriage is about declaring to your social group and each other you’ve decided to strive and commit to something greater than yourself.
- bscphil 3y ago
  > Marriage is about declaring to your social group and each other you’ve decided to strive and commit to something greater than yourself. I think most people can accept this belief while still thinking that there ought to be an out for two people who find themselves deeply unhappy together for a long period of time. Committing to something should very rarely be an absolute thing, and most people (even those who accept and respect marriage as a social institution) don't think that marriage should be one of those things. That's compatible with thinking (as you say in your OP) that most romantic relationships are shallow and not ultimately very meaningful, and wanting something more.
- noirbot 3y ago
  Yea, and as someone who's had their social group rent in half twice in recent years because of committed marriages falling apart, I'm pretty happy with less of my friends making me meet their new partner and integrate them into my life before having an acrimonious breakup after 1-5 years. I don't care if they love each other. I care that they're not making me pick sides and often causing me to deal with people I like moving away or quitting common hobbies so they can avoid someone they've gone from loving to loathing.
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  It really isn't. There are all kinds of valid reasons to get divorced, from partners maturing in different directions, to one partner maturing while the other doesn't, to drug and alcohol additions, to emotional and physical abuse. There are also selfish reasons, including boredom, finding more excitement - but not more depth - with someone else, and festering undiscussed resentment that financial and/or sexual expectations aren't being met. If one person goes down one of those paths and refuses to even discuss it, there's not much the other person can do. It's immature to expect a perfect glowing zero-conflict happy ever after. But it's equally immature to stay committed to something that is clearly dead and may be actively harmful to either or both partners - and perhaps the kids too, if there are any.

PretzelPirate 3y ago

> I can speak to this in some degree As you suggest at the end, this is very much your personal view. My wife and I have been together for almost 20 years, but we've only been married for 2. Our commitment didn't change due to marriage. The only thing that changed was that things got easier from a legal perspective. We no longer need to worry about wills in the case that one of us dies, and we can make medical decisions on behalf of each other if necessary. I suspect that for many people who don't have a religious desire to marry, marriage won't affect their level of commitment. I think this is supported by how often people get divorced.

fuzzfactor 3y ago
>together for almost 20 years, but we've only been married for 2. This is the way. When a relationship has been proven for a decade or more, then marriage can be contemplated more realistically.
- RMPR 3y ago
  > When a relationship has been proven for a decade or more, then marriage can be contemplated more realistically. This sounds good but the data seem to contradict you[0]. It's been known for a long time that people living together are more likely to get a divorce. This study is about re-evaluating if it's still true. All in all, the person you are responding to (and maybe you?) are more likely the exception rather than the norm. But to what extent the exception? 2 years is a pretty short time frame, only time will tell. 0: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jomf.12530?af=R& https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jomf.12530?a...

jemmyw 3y ago

I don't really understand it tbh. I was with my partner for 10 years before we got married (for a visa) and we had 2 kids by then. It never occurred to me that I wasn't committed in every sense, and having that piece of paper made no difference. I kind of think that if you feel you need that official thing then it's a signal of not really being committed or loving in the first place, but that's more of a belief I'd turn on myself than think about you or others.

fuzzfactor 3y ago
When an entrepreneur or other potentially risk-taking individual gets married, I silently think "Congratulations, now if one of you craters financially, you're both ruined." What I enjoy most is a more faithful & trusting relationship than most marriages anyway. Also depends on how much you like having a third party(s) involved in your relationship, for some people that's all they know or prefer, others not so much. Institutions can be so much bigger than any two people so the influence can still be outsized even without marriage. "We don't need no piece of paper from the city hall . . ." --Joni Mitchell