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The God Delusion gives a good overview of many aspects.

nprateem 3y ago
Yet despite being a several hundred pages long dedicates barely more than a few sentences to reports of personal religious experiences. This is unforgivable in such a book and discredits it as not serious in my eyes.
- rimliu 3y ago
  Why should it? And add a chapter on sleep paralsys? Another one on the effect of LSD?
  - nprateem 3y ago
    Straw man
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  'personal religious experiences' are kind of besides the point of the book. What value would adding in unverifiable anecdotes add?
  - nprateem 3y ago
    Well if it's possible to have an experience that suggests God exists, that'd be relevant in a book about whether God exists
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      Not really, because one person's personal experience can't be verified and is no different from delusion. It's also not what the book is looking at or talking about, and personal experiences don't weigh in on the argument Dawkins is making.
      - nprateem 3y ago
        If he was serious he'd have performed a study comparing personal religious experiences in aggregate across cultures and time periods. No need to rely on a single experience, that'd obviously be silly. Since he didn't bother to do this, he didn't refute them, eg as quirks of biology or whatever. As such, it's impossible to take him seriously as he failed to consider all angles. If he ignores personal experience he must buy into the western-centric son of God story, further biasing and undermining his argument. It's precisely because personal experiences don't weigh in on the argument he's making that his argument is flawed. The rest of his argument, for all it's plausibility, may simply be wrong.
        PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        No, man. What you're talking about is not in scope for the argument he is making or what he is writing about. It's basically entirely irrelevant. His book isn't a comprehensive argument against religion, it is very specific and makes specific points, and people's personal anecdotes are simply irrelevant. They wouldn't be to many other arguments, but they are to his in that book.
        nprateem 3y ago
        The book is the "God delusion", in which (from memory), he explains that no God is required to keep the universe running. Well, no person is responsible for continually moving pool balls around a table, but someone does start the process. So he might be right, or he might be wrong, who knows? He argues against organised religion which is pretty easy to do given their obvious abuses, but organised religion isn't God, so this adds little. The bible says things like e.g. God's kingdom is within you, which suggests personal experience is of primary importance, since how else would you explore inside yourself? Ignoring personal experience in that book is like not seeking witness statements for an investigation. It's impossible to develop a convincing argument without considering all the evidence. And as with any investigation, a witness statement isn't necessarily treated as factual on its own, but should be evaluated within the contexts of other known facts and corroborating reports. An argument about why something doesn't exist, no matter how convincing, becomes invalidated if conclusive evidence emerges demonstrating that it does. Not bothering to look for all relevant evidence doesn't make your argument right, it simply makes it flawed. Why don't you think personal experience is relevant to a discussion of why God exists?
mhb 3y ago
The End Of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason https://www.samharris.org/books/the-end-of-faith https://www.samharris.org/books/the-end-of-faith

Yet despite being a several hundred pages long dedicates barely more than a few sentences to reports of personal religious experiences. This is unforgivable in such a book and discredits it as not serious in my eyes.

rimliu 3y ago
Why should it? And add a chapter on sleep paralsys? Another one on the effect of LSD?
- nprateem 3y ago
  Straw man
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
'personal religious experiences' are kind of besides the point of the book. What value would adding in unverifiable anecdotes add?
- nprateem 3y ago
  Well if it's possible to have an experience that suggests God exists, that'd be relevant in a book about whether God exists
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    Not really, because one person's personal experience can't be verified and is no different from delusion. It's also not what the book is looking at or talking about, and personal experiences don't weigh in on the argument Dawkins is making.
    - nprateem 3y ago
      If he was serious he'd have performed a study comparing personal religious experiences in aggregate across cultures and time periods. No need to rely on a single experience, that'd obviously be silly. Since he didn't bother to do this, he didn't refute them, eg as quirks of biology or whatever. As such, it's impossible to take him seriously as he failed to consider all angles. If he ignores personal experience he must buy into the western-centric son of God story, further biasing and undermining his argument. It's precisely because personal experiences don't weigh in on the argument he's making that his argument is flawed. The rest of his argument, for all it's plausibility, may simply be wrong.
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        No, man. What you're talking about is not in scope for the argument he is making or what he is writing about. It's basically entirely irrelevant. His book isn't a comprehensive argument against religion, it is very specific and makes specific points, and people's personal anecdotes are simply irrelevant. They wouldn't be to many other arguments, but they are to his in that book.
        nprateem 3y ago
        The book is the "God delusion", in which (from memory), he explains that no God is required to keep the universe running. Well, no person is responsible for continually moving pool balls around a table, but someone does start the process. So he might be right, or he might be wrong, who knows? He argues against organised religion which is pretty easy to do given their obvious abuses, but organised religion isn't God, so this adds little. The bible says things like e.g. God's kingdom is within you, which suggests personal experience is of primary importance, since how else would you explore inside yourself? Ignoring personal experience in that book is like not seeking witness statements for an investigation. It's impossible to develop a convincing argument without considering all the evidence. And as with any investigation, a witness statement isn't necessarily treated as factual on its own, but should be evaluated within the contexts of other known facts and corroborating reports. An argument about why something doesn't exist, no matter how convincing, becomes invalidated if conclusive evidence emerges demonstrating that it does. Not bothering to look for all relevant evidence doesn't make your argument right, it simply makes it flawed. Why don't you think personal experience is relevant to a discussion of why God exists?

mhb 3y ago

The End Of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason https://www.samharris.org/books/the-end-of-faith https://www.samharris.org/books/the-end-of-faith