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I'm a Venetian since 2020, and I can say that I know a bit about these engineering and environmental issues. First, the €5.5B cost of the MOSE is mostly due to

I'm a Venetian since 2020, and I can say that I know a bit about these engineering and environmental issues. First, the €5.5B cost of the MOSE is mostly due to corruption. Several people have been investigated, and some condemned, but it's pretty clear to everyone that as much as 2/3rd of the cost can be attributed in one way to another to corruption. Second, no one in Venice is talking about raising the city by pumping something in its underground. No one. This whole article is fabricated by finding a couple of obscure academics willing to imagine a weird, unlikely scenario. There is no political will nor agreement on what to do to fight sea level rising. At least for the moment. Despite all of this, I love being here, and I hope I'll be able to enjoy the city for the next few decades. Maybe some fancy and intelligent solution will show up eventually, down the road. I'm not too hopeful.

zuprau 3y ago
> no one in Venice is talking about raising the city I see a lot of results: https://www.google.it/search?q=sollevare+venezia https://www.google.it/search?q=sollevare+venezia People have been talking about this for decades, but it doesn't seem to be very popular now, especially since MOSE appears to be working at the moment. There's even reportage by Le Iene https://www.iene.mediaset.it/2019/news/mose-alziamo-venezia-centimetri_606329.shtml https://www.iene.mediaset.it/2019/news/mose-alziamo-venezia-...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
oh_sigh 3y ago
Out of curiosity, why move to Venice? I guess 2020 would be a great time due to the dearth of tourists, but otherwise the city seems to be owned by tourists rather than the locals. Is there real hidden life going on there? How does one hook up with the local/long term residents?
- coldtea 3y ago
  Well, one could very well go there to be working with the tourists and short term residents...
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  I had the same question. I visited Venice years ago, and though I definitely think the place deserves to be on people's bucket list (it's beautiful, an engineering marvel, and I kept thinking to myself "How can this place still exist?"), but it still felt like "adult Disneyland" - more a museum almost than a place to live. Genuinely curious about what life is like living there, and what the draw would be to move there.
  - troad 3y ago
    There's many different kinds of experience to be had in Venice. If someone comes as part of a tour group, and their Italian is limited to 'grat-see', then yeah, they're 100% going to have a particular kind of experience (for which "adult Disneyland" is a great label). The stretch between the Rialto and Piazza San Marco, inclusive, is 100% for tourists. Some other stretches are heavily touristy too these days - the seaside walk between Piazza San Marco and Arsenale, the isles of Burano & Murano, etc. This is really no different from a place like Prague, where the historic heart is also 100% for tourists. There's other places in Venice though - quieter parts, less touristy streets. You see fewer selfie sticks and more people with grocery bags, you see lawyers' offices and dentists, you see cafés selling coffees for more reasonable prices, etc. I would imagine that there would be beautiful charm to living off the beaten path in Venice, strolling along the canals every time you want to go for walk. If you're someone who greatly values beauty, paying Venice's cost of living premium in exchange for that privilege might feel like a good deal.
    - LightBug1 3y ago
      100%. All it takes is the ability to use one's legs ...
- rufasterisco 3y ago
coldtea 3y ago
>First, the €5.5B cost of the MOSE is mostly due to corruption. Several people have been investigated, and some condemned, but it's pretty clear to everyone that as much as 2/3rd of the cost can be attributed in one way to another to corruption. Perhaps, but if we're being practical we should account for a similar increase in costs to any future solution. It's not like corruption will go away by the time the procurements for the next project go on...
- bryananderson 3y ago
  > Perhaps, but if we're being practical we should account for a similar increase in costs to any future solution. It's not like corruption will go away by the time the procurements for the next project go on... This meek fetal-position defeatism is why infrastructure costs spiral up and up and up forever. Raise costs on project A Baseline the expected costs for project B based on project A Raise costs further on project B Repeat endlessly It doesn’t have to be this way. Italy itself halved its rail construction costs by cracking down on corruption in the 90s. We always have a choice.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >This meek fetal-position defeatism is why infrastructure costs spiral up and up and up forever. Really? I thought the reason was corruption! Perhaps if we all think positively it goes away!
    - FredPret 3y ago
      Combine positive thinking with action, and yes, it will
      - scotty79 3y ago
        No it won't. Corruption is one of the main reasons those project go anywhere. People in positions of power want to do them because they can get money on the side while they are done. If we figured out how we can make combating climate change rife with corruption 30 years ago, we'd be in much better place right now.
jaclaz 3y ago
Well the idea is not exactly new, this is a 2005 article: https://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/11_Novembre/21/venice.shtml https://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/11_Novembre/21... Teatini and Gambolati are not "obscure academics", they are well known, see also this: https://reservoir-prima.org/partners/view/2 https://reservoir-prima.org/partners/view/2 but their theoretical models seem to have not been tested much in practice (AFAIK), BTW they even published a book in 2014 "Venice shall rise again": https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124201446/venice-shall-rise-again https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124201446/venice-shal...
seydor 3y ago
if all fails, drain the city
albertopv 3y ago
Italian here, I live 40km far from Venice, I confirm no one is really talking about raising the city.

zuprau 3y ago

> no one in Venice is talking about raising the city I see a lot of results: https://www.google.it/search?q=sollevare+venezia https://www.google.it/search?q=sollevare+venezia People have been talking about this for decades, but it doesn't seem to be very popular now, especially since MOSE appears to be working at the moment. There's even reportage by Le Iene https://www.iene.mediaset.it/2019/news/mose-alziamo-venezia-centimetri_606329.shtml https://www.iene.mediaset.it/2019/news/mose-alziamo-venezia-...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

oh_sigh 3y ago

Out of curiosity, why move to Venice? I guess 2020 would be a great time due to the dearth of tourists, but otherwise the city seems to be owned by tourists rather than the locals. Is there real hidden life going on there? How does one hook up with the local/long term residents?

coldtea 3y ago
Well, one could very well go there to be working with the tourists and short term residents...
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
I had the same question. I visited Venice years ago, and though I definitely think the place deserves to be on people's bucket list (it's beautiful, an engineering marvel, and I kept thinking to myself "How can this place still exist?"), but it still felt like "adult Disneyland" - more a museum almost than a place to live. Genuinely curious about what life is like living there, and what the draw would be to move there.
- troad 3y ago
  There's many different kinds of experience to be had in Venice. If someone comes as part of a tour group, and their Italian is limited to 'grat-see', then yeah, they're 100% going to have a particular kind of experience (for which "adult Disneyland" is a great label). The stretch between the Rialto and Piazza San Marco, inclusive, is 100% for tourists. Some other stretches are heavily touristy too these days - the seaside walk between Piazza San Marco and Arsenale, the isles of Burano & Murano, etc. This is really no different from a place like Prague, where the historic heart is also 100% for tourists. There's other places in Venice though - quieter parts, less touristy streets. You see fewer selfie sticks and more people with grocery bags, you see lawyers' offices and dentists, you see cafés selling coffees for more reasonable prices, etc. I would imagine that there would be beautiful charm to living off the beaten path in Venice, strolling along the canals every time you want to go for walk. If you're someone who greatly values beauty, paying Venice's cost of living premium in exchange for that privilege might feel like a good deal.
  - LightBug1 3y ago
    100%. All it takes is the ability to use one's legs ...
rufasterisco 3y ago

coldtea 3y ago

>First, the €5.5B cost of the MOSE is mostly due to corruption. Several people have been investigated, and some condemned, but it's pretty clear to everyone that as much as 2/3rd of the cost can be attributed in one way to another to corruption. Perhaps, but if we're being practical we should account for a similar increase in costs to any future solution. It's not like corruption will go away by the time the procurements for the next project go on...

bryananderson 3y ago
> Perhaps, but if we're being practical we should account for a similar increase in costs to any future solution. It's not like corruption will go away by the time the procurements for the next project go on... This meek fetal-position defeatism is why infrastructure costs spiral up and up and up forever. Raise costs on project A Baseline the expected costs for project B based on project A Raise costs further on project B Repeat endlessly It doesn’t have to be this way. Italy itself halved its rail construction costs by cracking down on corruption in the 90s. We always have a choice.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >This meek fetal-position defeatism is why infrastructure costs spiral up and up and up forever. Really? I thought the reason was corruption! Perhaps if we all think positively it goes away!
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Combine positive thinking with action, and yes, it will
    - scotty79 3y ago
      No it won't. Corruption is one of the main reasons those project go anywhere. People in positions of power want to do them because they can get money on the side while they are done. If we figured out how we can make combating climate change rife with corruption 30 years ago, we'd be in much better place right now.

jaclaz 3y ago

Well the idea is not exactly new, this is a 2005 article: https://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/11_Novembre/21/venice.shtml https://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/11_Novembre/21... Teatini and Gambolati are not "obscure academics", they are well known, see also this: https://reservoir-prima.org/partners/view/2 https://reservoir-prima.org/partners/view/2 but their theoretical models seem to have not been tested much in practice (AFAIK), BTW they even published a book in 2014 "Venice shall rise again": https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124201446/venice-shall-rise-again https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124201446/venice-shal...

seydor 3y ago

if all fails, drain the city

albertopv 3y ago

Italian here, I live 40km far from Venice, I confirm no one is really talking about raising the city.