5 ms·

rust needs it's empaths, too. if we can all figure out how to adult, be decent, work together, and understand the strengths/weaknesses of our very different pe

rust needs it's empaths, too. if we can all figure out how to adult, be decent, work together, and understand the strengths/weaknesses of our very different personalities and skills, hopefully we can all continue building cool stuff together without alienating important voices.

lolinder 3y ago
> if we can all figure out how to adult Part of adulting is responding proportionally to childish behavior in others. Events like this feel like my toddlers fighting—he takes her pencil so she tears his paper so he hits her so she comes crying to mommy. The adult in the room deescalates, they don't write an emotional blog about how betrayed they feel on behalf of someone else.
- marcinzm 3y ago
  That depends on the power balance. Adults have power over children. The author does not have power over the people involved. Deescalating when you lack power is often little different from not saying anything at all. This is why most non-generational change to existing power structures involves large groups of very angry people. Same reason complaining about your Google Account getting locked on social media is more effective than spending the rest of your life going through their process. The real question is if the Rust project has an equitable governance structure that minimizes imbalances of power or if it doesn't. If it does then the author should follow that instead of a large angry blog post. If it doesn't then he may as well go with the large angry blog post.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    You don't have to have power to deescalate. We're teaching our children to respond appropriately to conflict—in the situation above, either one of them can deescalate by approaching the conflict reasonably. He could have avoided it altogether by asking nicely for her pencil. She could deescalate by recognizing that he really wanted her pencil and making a trade that they both are happy with. It's hard for them to do because their escalatory actions feel more immediately effective at bringing "justice", but they don't work out in the long run. The cycle of childishness isn't going to be solved by a post that triggers an internet mob, that's just another childish response in the cycle.
    - marcinzm 3y ago
      >We're teaching our children to respond appropriately to conflict—in the situation above, either one of them can deescalate by approaching the conflict reasonably. He could have avoided it altogether by asking nicely for her pencil. She could deescalate by recognizing that he really wanted her pencil and making a trade that they both are happy with. It's hard for them to do because their escalatory actions feel more immediately effective at bringing "justice", but they don't work out in the long run. Again you're using an example of two children who are equal in power dynamics. Now try having a child deescalate an angry adult. Most people would not find that a reasonable request.
      - lolinder 3y ago
        The author isn't a child to the core team's adult, they were one of four members of the core team [0]. They're not an individual contributor who feels incapable of effecting change in the wider org, they were mad at the way one of their peers handled the situation. [0] Still listed as such here: https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core
  - pdimitar 3y ago
    No power over anyone is required. Reasonable and well-grounded arguments seeking to resolve conflict will do.
    - marcinzm 3y ago
      That requires either both sides to be equal in power or both sides to be willing to stick to the process. From the blog the author believes neither is the case.
      - pdimitar 3y ago
        Yes, agreed. My objection is to their dramatic language and seeming over-reaction. There were much better ways to express disagreement and protest.
      - lolinder 3y ago
        The author was one of four members of the core team [0], "which is which is ultimately responsible for all decision-making in the project."[1] If there was a power imbalance it's because they were ineffective in their position. [0] https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core [1] https://rust-lang.github.io/rfcs/1068-rust-governance.html https://rust-lang.github.io/rfcs/1068-rust-governance.html

lolinder 3y ago

> if we can all figure out how to adult Part of adulting is responding proportionally to childish behavior in others. Events like this feel like my toddlers fighting—he takes her pencil so she tears his paper so he hits her so she comes crying to mommy. The adult in the room deescalates, they don't write an emotional blog about how betrayed they feel on behalf of someone else.

marcinzm 3y ago
That depends on the power balance. Adults have power over children. The author does not have power over the people involved. Deescalating when you lack power is often little different from not saying anything at all. This is why most non-generational change to existing power structures involves large groups of very angry people. Same reason complaining about your Google Account getting locked on social media is more effective than spending the rest of your life going through their process. The real question is if the Rust project has an equitable governance structure that minimizes imbalances of power or if it doesn't. If it does then the author should follow that instead of a large angry blog post. If it doesn't then he may as well go with the large angry blog post.
- lolinder 3y ago
  You don't have to have power to deescalate. We're teaching our children to respond appropriately to conflict—in the situation above, either one of them can deescalate by approaching the conflict reasonably. He could have avoided it altogether by asking nicely for her pencil. She could deescalate by recognizing that he really wanted her pencil and making a trade that they both are happy with. It's hard for them to do because their escalatory actions feel more immediately effective at bringing "justice", but they don't work out in the long run. The cycle of childishness isn't going to be solved by a post that triggers an internet mob, that's just another childish response in the cycle.
  - marcinzm 3y ago
    >We're teaching our children to respond appropriately to conflict—in the situation above, either one of them can deescalate by approaching the conflict reasonably. He could have avoided it altogether by asking nicely for her pencil. She could deescalate by recognizing that he really wanted her pencil and making a trade that they both are happy with. It's hard for them to do because their escalatory actions feel more immediately effective at bringing "justice", but they don't work out in the long run. Again you're using an example of two children who are equal in power dynamics. Now try having a child deescalate an angry adult. Most people would not find that a reasonable request.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      The author isn't a child to the core team's adult, they were one of four members of the core team [0]. They're not an individual contributor who feels incapable of effecting change in the wider org, they were mad at the way one of their peers handled the situation. [0] Still listed as such here: https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core
- pdimitar 3y ago
  No power over anyone is required. Reasonable and well-grounded arguments seeking to resolve conflict will do.
  - marcinzm 3y ago
    That requires either both sides to be equal in power or both sides to be willing to stick to the process. From the blog the author believes neither is the case.
    - pdimitar 3y ago
      Yes, agreed. My objection is to their dramatic language and seeming over-reaction. There were much better ways to express disagreement and protest.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      The author was one of four members of the core team [0], "which is which is ultimately responsible for all decision-making in the project."[1] If there was a power imbalance it's because they were ineffective in their position. [0] https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core [1] https://rust-lang.github.io/rfcs/1068-rust-governance.html https://rust-lang.github.io/rfcs/1068-rust-governance.html