5 ms·

"White" is rather emphatically not like other ethnic or racial labels. Throughout the history of the US, who counts as "white" has been redefined many times to

"White" is rather emphatically not like other ethnic or racial labels. Throughout the history of the US, who counts as "white" has been redefined many times to suit the political goals of the people at the time. In the era of the founding fathers, the Irish, Spaniards, Italians, all considered not white. Then during various times, often driving by waves of immigration of some other ethnicity people were freaking out about, drive a process to include them in whiteness as allies against the new threat. There's a great deal to read on this topic if you're genuinely interested. Otherwise I just want to warn you that the way you phrase this comes across as rather ignorant and stepping on the border of racism.

chillbill 3y ago
I think your comment shows a level of ignorance on the matter that's not warranted. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You seem to genuinely care but you have not done enough work to understand the intricacies of the topic. It's a difficult one, and you don't have to if you don't want to, but to lecture me on my phrasing shows a deep level of ideological holding that you may have, I would advise you to listen/read more, and always steelman your arguments.
mafribe 3y ago
> Throughout the history of the US Is the US the world's only country? Throughout the history of the world, who counts as XYZ has been redefined many times to suit the political goals of the people at the time. I recall when we stopped being Yugoslavian, and started shooting at each other, as Serbs or Croats. The Russian guy sitting next me married a Ukrainian woman a decade ago. Recently Russians and Ukrainians started shooting at each other. There's a great deal to read on this topic if you're genuinely interested. “The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.”
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
  Of course not, but the context is a conference in the US.
  - peterfirefly 3y ago
    And you got it wrong. The Irish were not considered non-white. The ethnic divisions were (and are) most definitely not just White vs PoC. It used to be extremely important whether a person was a Catholic or a Protestant, for example, all other kinds of Christianity being conveniently ignored. I liked JeanHeyd's blog because he is a good writer (but a bit on the chatty side). I also love what he does for the C standardization process. His skin colour is completely irrelevant.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
      > The Irish were not considered non-white. They absolutely were and you can find writing by Ben Franklin in their own words saying so explicitly.
diydsp 3y ago
...Calling a PoC ignorant, lecturing them and imploring them to read about racism... whew... Them having been on the other side of the saddle, I'd bet they're familiar. How about simply listening to what they have to say without instruction, seeing their perspective and taking it in?
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
  I assumed nothing about the person and am simply relating history.
  - chillbill 3y ago
    You're relating ideological narrative that fits your political beliefs.
JyB 3y ago
Not sure what that has to do with how, in today's US society, the 'White' vs 'PoC' labels and paradigm is used by an extremely divisive and toxic 'Us vs Them' mentality. Even when completely off-topic. Which the parent was making an obvious allusion to. The fact that you even dared to threaten him with gross insinuations says a lot about you, or more broadly about the US in general.
kzrdude 3y ago
I'm not from anywhere close to the US cultural sphere. This aspect is one of the reasons I'm very uncomfortable with all the classification of people into races. There's always a hierarchy implied, even inside the white category, a ranking of more or less white, questionably or unquestionably white etc. It's not the world I want, I don't want to internalize these (unspoken) classifications of people.
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
  It's not the world I want either but denying this is what exists in reality in some false appeal to "can't we just ignore race" is equivalent to saying to people who are currently discriminated against "suffer in silence." You do what you want but I'm not going to do that.
DirkH 3y ago
I agreed with you up until you casually insinuated ChillBill is racist. Like WTF? Rude. This is exactly the kind of behaviour ChillBill is talking about. Racism is a big deal. You can't just casually be throwing it in anywhere without backing up what you're saying. What exactly did ChillBill say that borders on racism? Why does that step on the border if racism? Why are you that sure that you'd warn him/her/them?

chillbill 3y ago

I think your comment shows a level of ignorance on the matter that's not warranted. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You seem to genuinely care but you have not done enough work to understand the intricacies of the topic. It's a difficult one, and you don't have to if you don't want to, but to lecture me on my phrasing shows a deep level of ideological holding that you may have, I would advise you to listen/read more, and always steelman your arguments.

mafribe 3y ago

> Throughout the history of the US Is the US the world's only country? Throughout the history of the world, who counts as XYZ has been redefined many times to suit the political goals of the people at the time. I recall when we stopped being Yugoslavian, and started shooting at each other, as Serbs or Croats. The Russian guy sitting next me married a Ukrainian woman a decade ago. Recently Russians and Ukrainians started shooting at each other. There's a great deal to read on this topic if you're genuinely interested. “The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.”

jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
Of course not, but the context is a conference in the US.
- peterfirefly 3y ago
  And you got it wrong. The Irish were not considered non-white. The ethnic divisions were (and are) most definitely not just White vs PoC. It used to be extremely important whether a person was a Catholic or a Protestant, for example, all other kinds of Christianity being conveniently ignored. I liked JeanHeyd's blog because he is a good writer (but a bit on the chatty side). I also love what he does for the C standardization process. His skin colour is completely irrelevant.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
    > The Irish were not considered non-white. They absolutely were and you can find writing by Ben Franklin in their own words saying so explicitly.

diydsp 3y ago

...Calling a PoC ignorant, lecturing them and imploring them to read about racism... whew... Them having been on the other side of the saddle, I'd bet they're familiar. How about simply listening to what they have to say without instruction, seeing their perspective and taking it in?

jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
I assumed nothing about the person and am simply relating history.
- chillbill 3y ago
  You're relating ideological narrative that fits your political beliefs.

JyB 3y ago

Not sure what that has to do with how, in today's US society, the 'White' vs 'PoC' labels and paradigm is used by an extremely divisive and toxic 'Us vs Them' mentality. Even when completely off-topic. Which the parent was making an obvious allusion to. The fact that you even dared to threaten him with gross insinuations says a lot about you, or more broadly about the US in general.

kzrdude 3y ago

I'm not from anywhere close to the US cultural sphere. This aspect is one of the reasons I'm very uncomfortable with all the classification of people into races. There's always a hierarchy implied, even inside the white category, a ranking of more or less white, questionably or unquestionably white etc. It's not the world I want, I don't want to internalize these (unspoken) classifications of people.

jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
It's not the world I want either but denying this is what exists in reality in some false appeal to "can't we just ignore race" is equivalent to saying to people who are currently discriminated against "suffer in silence." You do what you want but I'm not going to do that.

DirkH 3y ago

I agreed with you up until you casually insinuated ChillBill is racist. Like WTF? Rude. This is exactly the kind of behaviour ChillBill is talking about. Racism is a big deal. You can't just casually be throwing it in anywhere without backing up what you're saying. What exactly did ChillBill say that borders on racism? Why does that step on the border if racism? Why are you that sure that you'd warn him/her/them?