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I think it is worth noting that the crimes of Imperial Japan are by no means less than those of Nazi Germany and the bombing of Hiroshima pales in comparison to

I think it is worth noting that the crimes of Imperial Japan are by no means less than those of Nazi Germany and the bombing of Hiroshima pales in comparison to what the Empire of Japan did to China alone - not to mention the Philippines, Korea, Myanmar (Burma), etc. If you're going to hold war to a moral standard, at least consider the alternatives.

mitthrowaway2 3y ago
"The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should not have been done" is a controversial statement. Some people agree, some people don't. "The Japanese army's atrocities in Asia should not have been done" is not a controversial statement. I think anyone with a brain will agree with it. So, what point is made by comparing these things? Even if there is wide agreement that Japan's atrocities in Asia were in some way worse than the atomic bombings, the only question that settles is the question of whether the USA behaved even more repugnantly than Imperial Japan. Which is hardly a relevant question at all. The people who are aghast at the atomic bombings already hold the US to a higher standard of conduct.
- AbrahamParangi 3y ago
  Well, what's the point of comparing anything? What's the point of contextualizing? Perhaps it gives us a fuller understanding of the world. It is worth recognizing that most people outside of East Asia are basically unaware of the fact that Imperial Japan killed perhaps 20M civilians in its wars of aggression.
  - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
    Citation needed?
    - AbrahamParangi 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes Under Emperor Hirohito, the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) and the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) perpetrated numerous war crimes which resulted in the deaths of millions of people. Estimates of the number of deaths range from 3[2] to 30[6] million through sexual slavery, massacres, human experimentation, starvation, and forced labor directly perpetrated or condoned by the Japanese military and government. If you click through to find that paragraph you will see 7 additional sources cited for this claim. I said possibly 20M which is probably on the high end but within the range. It is hard to know for certain how many people were killed because the Japanese army was, to paraphrase, worse than the Germans at keeping records and better than the Germans at destroying records of how many people they killed.
      - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
        Sorry, I should have been clear. The citation I was looking for was about people outside of East Asia not being aware of this. Where I live (in Canada), among everyone I know who knows anything about the second world war, Imperial Japan's massacres of civilians are common knowledge, as are their other war crimes like treatment of POWs, medical experiments on civilians, "comfort women" and so on. However, outside of the fringe neo-nazi / holocaust denier / Japanese ultranationalist crowd, which is a very small group, you won't find anyone who thinks this was anything other than Very Obviously Bad, to the point that there's not really much discussion worth having about it. If there's a controversy to be argued, it might revolve around whether Japan has done enough to apologize or pay reparations; whether Japanese civilians deserve blame for the actions of a military dictatorship; whether ethnically Japanese young people today should feel ashamed of their country or their heritage; whether it's unfair to single them out for something their grandparents did; whether these injustices are being used today to foster hatred and resentment instead of good-will and understanding; or something like that. But I don't see any insight that can be gained from a discussion of "was the USA's atomic bombing a less super-villainous action on the scale of other, universally condemned super-villainous actions like the holocaust or the rape of Nanjing?" Because on any objective scale the answer is obviously that it's not as bad. But since everyone will instantly agree about that, we can then move to a more interesting conversation of did the nuclear bombing of civilian populations fall below the moral standard we should hold ourselves to?

mitthrowaway2 3y ago

"The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should not have been done" is a controversial statement. Some people agree, some people don't. "The Japanese army's atrocities in Asia should not have been done" is not a controversial statement. I think anyone with a brain will agree with it. So, what point is made by comparing these things? Even if there is wide agreement that Japan's atrocities in Asia were in some way worse than the atomic bombings, the only question that settles is the question of whether the USA behaved even more repugnantly than Imperial Japan. Which is hardly a relevant question at all. The people who are aghast at the atomic bombings already hold the US to a higher standard of conduct.

AbrahamParangi 3y ago
Well, what's the point of comparing anything? What's the point of contextualizing? Perhaps it gives us a fuller understanding of the world. It is worth recognizing that most people outside of East Asia are basically unaware of the fact that Imperial Japan killed perhaps 20M civilians in its wars of aggression.
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  Citation needed?
  - AbrahamParangi 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes Under Emperor Hirohito, the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) and the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) perpetrated numerous war crimes which resulted in the deaths of millions of people. Estimates of the number of deaths range from 3[2] to 30[6] million through sexual slavery, massacres, human experimentation, starvation, and forced labor directly perpetrated or condoned by the Japanese military and government. If you click through to find that paragraph you will see 7 additional sources cited for this claim. I said possibly 20M which is probably on the high end but within the range. It is hard to know for certain how many people were killed because the Japanese army was, to paraphrase, worse than the Germans at keeping records and better than the Germans at destroying records of how many people they killed.
    - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
      Sorry, I should have been clear. The citation I was looking for was about people outside of East Asia not being aware of this. Where I live (in Canada), among everyone I know who knows anything about the second world war, Imperial Japan's massacres of civilians are common knowledge, as are their other war crimes like treatment of POWs, medical experiments on civilians, "comfort women" and so on. However, outside of the fringe neo-nazi / holocaust denier / Japanese ultranationalist crowd, which is a very small group, you won't find anyone who thinks this was anything other than Very Obviously Bad, to the point that there's not really much discussion worth having about it. If there's a controversy to be argued, it might revolve around whether Japan has done enough to apologize or pay reparations; whether Japanese civilians deserve blame for the actions of a military dictatorship; whether ethnically Japanese young people today should feel ashamed of their country or their heritage; whether it's unfair to single them out for something their grandparents did; whether these injustices are being used today to foster hatred and resentment instead of good-will and understanding; or something like that. But I don't see any insight that can be gained from a discussion of "was the USA's atomic bombing a less super-villainous action on the scale of other, universally condemned super-villainous actions like the holocaust or the rape of Nanjing?" Because on any objective scale the answer is obviously that it's not as bad. But since everyone will instantly agree about that, we can then move to a more interesting conversation of did the nuclear bombing of civilian populations fall below the moral standard we should hold ourselves to?