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> This is the kind of problem that Epictetus’ version of Stoicism is designed to address: a privileged man is disturbed by the idea that he does not have comple

by seneca 3y ago

> This is the kind of problem that Epictetus’ version of Stoicism is designed to address: a privileged man is disturbed by the idea that he does not have complete control over every element of his existence. The gall of a modern academic to downplay the teachings of one of the greatest philosophers in history, himself a former slave, in these childish terms really shouldn't surprise me, but it still does. One of the most privileged and spoiled classes of people in history, and they just can't seem to help themselves but to attack those that actually accomplished things.

aloneindecember 3y ago
I agree, and your username is hilarious and appropriate given this subject matter.
syntheweave 3y ago
It's a certain axe to grind that the post-Enlightenment academy has had from the beginning with virtue ethics: if we are to be utilitarian, or act according to the Categorical Imperative, then our duty is to attain omniscient knowledge for our own good. Acting within norms to attain virtue, as Epictetus would have it, is out. The way in which it's out changes according to which norms we want to critique, but the rhetoric of the article follows from there, and it's easy to turn that against the article itself by criticizing the norms it prefers(broadly, post-structural feminism) as a virtue signal. Wilson has also translated and critiqued Seneca, according to her wiki article. So I would see this writing as the next entry in a career-making exercise.
marcusverus 3y ago
Yeah a lot of her commentary seemed… off. Marcus Aurelius (who constantly urges the reader not to turn away from his fellow man, nor even to hold a man’s foibles against him!) is a misanthrope. Epictetus (who instructs the reader not to shed a tear in the event of a child’s death) is oh-so-kind!
emmelaich 3y ago
Did you misread that? She's not saying Epictetus is privileged. As a lauded translator of the Odyssey, (and soon the Iliad) I'm inclined towards a very good faith reading of her article.
- Aidevah 3y ago
  >lauded translator of the Odyssey For comparison, here is the opening snippet of the Odyssey done by several translators: Richmond Lattimore (1967): Tell me, Muse, of the man of many ways, who was driven far journeys, after he had sacked Troy's sacred citadel. Many were they whose cities he saw, whose minds he learned of, many the pains he suffered in his spirit on the wide sea, struggling for his own life and the homecoming of his companions. Even so he could not save his companions, hard though he strove to; they were destroyed by their own wild recklessness, fools, who devoured the oxen of Helios, the Sun God, and he took away the day of their homecoming. From some point here, goddess, daughter of Zeus, speak, and begin our story. Robert Fagles (1996): Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns driven time and again off course, once he had plundered the hallowed heights of Troy. Many cities of men he saw and learned their minds, many pains he suffered, heartsick on the open sea, fighting to save his life and bring his comrades home. But he could not save them from disaster, hard as he strove — the recklessness of their own ways destroyed them all, the blind fools, they devoured the cattle of the Sun and the Sungod wiped from sight the day of their return. Launch out on his story, Muse, daughter of Zeus, start from where you will —sing for our time too. Emily Wilson (2017): Tell me about a complicated man. Muse, tell me how he wandered and was lost when he had wrecked the holy town of Troy, and where he went, and who he met, the pain he suffered in the storms at sea, and how he worked to save his life and bring his men back home. He failed to keep them safe; poor fools, they ate the Sun God’s cattle, and the god kept them from home. Now goddess, child of Zeus, tell the old story for our modern times. Find the beginning. Peter Green (2018): The man, Muse—tell me about that resourceful man, who wandered far and wide, when he’d sacked Troy’s sacred citadel: many men’s townships he saw, and learned their ways of thinking, many the griefs he suffered at heart on the open sea, battling for his own life and his comrades’ homecoming. Yet no way could he save his comrades, much though he longed to— it was through their own blind recklessness that they perished, the fools, for they slaughtered the cattle of Hēlios the sun god and ate them: for that he took from them their day of returning. Tell us this tale, goddess, child of Zeus; start anywhere in it!
laratied 3y ago
I think it comes from a place of guilt exactly because of that level of privilege but over time it has morphed into a type of intellectual fetish. Like the person so involved in the BDSM community that everything relates back somehow to bondage or nipple clamps.

by seneca 3y ago

aloneindecember 3y ago

I agree, and your username is hilarious and appropriate given this subject matter.

syntheweave 3y ago

It's a certain axe to grind that the post-Enlightenment academy has had from the beginning with virtue ethics: if we are to be utilitarian, or act according to the Categorical Imperative, then our duty is to attain omniscient knowledge for our own good. Acting within norms to attain virtue, as Epictetus would have it, is out. The way in which it's out changes according to which norms we want to critique, but the rhetoric of the article follows from there, and it's easy to turn that against the article itself by criticizing the norms it prefers(broadly, post-structural feminism) as a virtue signal. Wilson has also translated and critiqued Seneca, according to her wiki article. So I would see this writing as the next entry in a career-making exercise.

marcusverus 3y ago

Yeah a lot of her commentary seemed… off. Marcus Aurelius (who constantly urges the reader not to turn away from his fellow man, nor even to hold a man’s foibles against him!) is a misanthrope. Epictetus (who instructs the reader not to shed a tear in the event of a child’s death) is oh-so-kind!

emmelaich 3y ago

Did you misread that? She's not saying Epictetus is privileged. As a lauded translator of the Odyssey, (and soon the Iliad) I'm inclined towards a very good faith reading of her article.

Aidevah 3y ago
>lauded translator of the Odyssey For comparison, here is the opening snippet of the Odyssey done by several translators: Richmond Lattimore (1967): Tell me, Muse, of the man of many ways, who was driven far journeys, after he had sacked Troy's sacred citadel. Many were they whose cities he saw, whose minds he learned of, many the pains he suffered in his spirit on the wide sea, struggling for his own life and the homecoming of his companions. Even so he could not save his companions, hard though he strove to; they were destroyed by their own wild recklessness, fools, who devoured the oxen of Helios, the Sun God, and he took away the day of their homecoming. From some point here, goddess, daughter of Zeus, speak, and begin our story. Robert Fagles (1996): Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns driven time and again off course, once he had plundered the hallowed heights of Troy. Many cities of men he saw and learned their minds, many pains he suffered, heartsick on the open sea, fighting to save his life and bring his comrades home. But he could not save them from disaster, hard as he strove — the recklessness of their own ways destroyed them all, the blind fools, they devoured the cattle of the Sun and the Sungod wiped from sight the day of their return. Launch out on his story, Muse, daughter of Zeus, start from where you will —sing for our time too. Emily Wilson (2017): Tell me about a complicated man. Muse, tell me how he wandered and was lost when he had wrecked the holy town of Troy, and where he went, and who he met, the pain he suffered in the storms at sea, and how he worked to save his life and bring his men back home. He failed to keep them safe; poor fools, they ate the Sun God’s cattle, and the god kept them from home. Now goddess, child of Zeus, tell the old story for our modern times. Find the beginning. Peter Green (2018): The man, Muse—tell me about that resourceful man, who wandered far and wide, when he’d sacked Troy’s sacred citadel: many men’s townships he saw, and learned their ways of thinking, many the griefs he suffered at heart on the open sea, battling for his own life and his comrades’ homecoming. Yet no way could he save his comrades, much though he longed to— it was through their own blind recklessness that they perished, the fools, for they slaughtered the cattle of Hēlios the sun god and ate them: for that he took from them their day of returning. Tell us this tale, goddess, child of Zeus; start anywhere in it!

laratied 3y ago

I think it comes from a place of guilt exactly because of that level of privilege but over time it has morphed into a type of intellectual fetish. Like the person so involved in the BDSM community that everything relates back somehow to bondage or nipple clamps.