6 ms·

I have a dynamic pricing contract, prices are generally around or slightly below fixed market rates, but when it's sunny or windy I get power for free, or bette

I have a dynamic pricing contract, prices are generally around or slightly below fixed market rates, but when it's sunny or windy I get power for free, or better. Got paid to charge my car today. I like it, because it makes me more mindful of the e-grid (also free power) So, it is possible to have some force changing consumer behavior. It all depends on sane legislation, allowing a system like this to exist.

the_third_wave 3y ago
We have a dynamic (hourly rates) contract as well and well and we sometimes see negative electricity prices. This does not mean electricity ends up being free since there is also the transmission charge, energy tax, renewable energy surcharge and value added tax on all of these to pay. Do you actually get paid to use power, i.e. do you not have to pay any of the mentioned charges?
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  If they do get 100% free, this continually reraises a question of mine: outside of crypto mining, is there anything a consumer can do to capture benefit from free electricity? Low efficiency synthesis of ethanol, hydrogen, carbon capture, desalination, precious mineral enrichment from seawater? With net metering rates tanking, I would love to see some way to productively capture spare juice. The duck curve is not going anywhere.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    If in a cold climate, heat the earth under your house. Then, that earth slowly gives its heat back to you over the coming months (soil is quite a poor thermal conductor, so the heat hangs around underground for a really long time) Obscenely powerful heaters are rather cheap. Assuming prices only go negative pretty rarely, you really want 100 kilowatts or more of heaters under your house to get as much free power as possible.
    - willglynn 3y ago
      Residential power here for single family homes -- the type which could reasonably do what you suggest -- is almost always single phase 120/240V. As an upper bound, let's consider 400A service. (Most homes have services smaller than 400A, and even 400A service is typically delivered to a pair of smaller panels to keep conductor and busbar sizes manageable.) Such heaters would be considered continuous loads, reducing the 400A service to 320A of current. Resistive heaters are a linear load, so we can multiply 240V * 320A to get 76.8 kW at maximum. Hitting 76 kW is wildly impractical. Exceeding 100 kW is nonsense.
  - Hextinium 3y ago
    Easiest is probably using your house as a thermal battery and just temporarily dumping energy into cooling or heating down to a set temp and then when allowing your house to normalize when prices go up. Alternatively, charge your own batteries and load balance. It's boring but effective. You could have your computer queued to run high energy ops when free, queue training models, compiling, etc. Which would generate a lot of heat, thus cranking the AC. I could see how this could easily 10x your power draw for a few thousand dollars and work in the background.
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  Often the base price is negative but you still pay some for taxes etc. Yesterday, net price was also negative because the base price was so ridiculously low...
dv_dt 3y ago
It’s possible, but in California for instance, I see large utilities constantly placing blockages in the way via regulatory capture of the PUC.
- everybodyknows 3y ago
  It's called a "TOU" service plan, and I've had one for several years now, through San Diego G&E, which is a large utility.
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    It’s been gutted for future customers - https://solarrights.org/savecaliforniasolar/ https://solarrights.org/savecaliforniasolar/
    - ThatPlayer 3y ago
      Home solar installs (and that change) would be NEM, not TOU. California had a mandate to move everyone to TOU a while back, though some might still be on the old plans.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - dv_dt 3y ago
        As a residential electricity user there is little reason for me to be on tou unless I also have an Nem for installed solar. All the tou might do is expose me to inconvenience and high costs.
        ThatPlayer 3y ago
        That really depends on your usages. The extreme examples are if you have an electric car that you can charge overnight instead of peak hours, or work any shift that's not 9-5 so that you avoid the 6-9pm peak hours. And of course the whole point is to incentivize changing usages to using less power during peak hours, which it does better than the old plans. There's always going to be a slight inconvenience to get everyone to change habits.
nonfamous 3y ago
I had a similar contract when I lived in IL, and I also liked it and it made me more conscious of my energy usage patterns. But there was always this niggling concern that the price could spike to 200x like it did in Texas, without me being able to react. Regulation to cap the peak rate would help allay consumer fears, IMO, while still offering ample profit potential to providers.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  Even with a cap, it feels like it would just take one freak occurrence (power plant/transformer/blizzard) meltdown to erase any potential savings from subscribing to dynamic pricing.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    Nah, just switch over to a generator for your bare essential needs and hunker down for a bit. You can't go into a dynamic environment and only plan for upsides.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    Fixed pricing is basically dynamic pricing + insurance. In the expected case, you pay more over any period of time if you take the insurance. If you can afford the risks, going without insurance tends to be cheaper.
  - everybodyknows 3y ago
    In California TOU plans, there are caps on all three of: 1. Price per kWh - $1 last I checked 2. Hours per day at max price - ~9 3. Days per year max price charged - ~10 Even in the worst case, not too scary.
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
      With the horror stories in Texas, I was assuming significantly worse caps. Regardless, I have very little consumption I can time shift to off-peak hours (laundry? dishwasher?), so dynamic pricing would unlikely ever work out for me.

the_third_wave 3y ago

We have a dynamic (hourly rates) contract as well and well and we sometimes see negative electricity prices. This does not mean electricity ends up being free since there is also the transmission charge, energy tax, renewable energy surcharge and value added tax on all of these to pay. Do you actually get paid to use power, i.e. do you not have to pay any of the mentioned charges?

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
If they do get 100% free, this continually reraises a question of mine: outside of crypto mining, is there anything a consumer can do to capture benefit from free electricity? Low efficiency synthesis of ethanol, hydrogen, carbon capture, desalination, precious mineral enrichment from seawater? With net metering rates tanking, I would love to see some way to productively capture spare juice. The duck curve is not going anywhere.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  If in a cold climate, heat the earth under your house. Then, that earth slowly gives its heat back to you over the coming months (soil is quite a poor thermal conductor, so the heat hangs around underground for a really long time) Obscenely powerful heaters are rather cheap. Assuming prices only go negative pretty rarely, you really want 100 kilowatts or more of heaters under your house to get as much free power as possible.
  - willglynn 3y ago
    Residential power here for single family homes -- the type which could reasonably do what you suggest -- is almost always single phase 120/240V. As an upper bound, let's consider 400A service. (Most homes have services smaller than 400A, and even 400A service is typically delivered to a pair of smaller panels to keep conductor and busbar sizes manageable.) Such heaters would be considered continuous loads, reducing the 400A service to 320A of current. Resistive heaters are a linear load, so we can multiply 240V * 320A to get 76.8 kW at maximum. Hitting 76 kW is wildly impractical. Exceeding 100 kW is nonsense.
- Hextinium 3y ago
  Easiest is probably using your house as a thermal battery and just temporarily dumping energy into cooling or heating down to a set temp and then when allowing your house to normalize when prices go up. Alternatively, charge your own batteries and load balance. It's boring but effective. You could have your computer queued to run high energy ops when free, queue training models, compiling, etc. Which would generate a lot of heat, thus cranking the AC. I could see how this could easily 10x your power draw for a few thousand dollars and work in the background.
isoprophlex 3y ago
Often the base price is negative but you still pay some for taxes etc. Yesterday, net price was also negative because the base price was so ridiculously low...

dv_dt 3y ago

It’s possible, but in California for instance, I see large utilities constantly placing blockages in the way via regulatory capture of the PUC.

everybodyknows 3y ago
It's called a "TOU" service plan, and I've had one for several years now, through San Diego G&E, which is a large utility.
- dv_dt 3y ago
  It’s been gutted for future customers - https://solarrights.org/savecaliforniasolar/ https://solarrights.org/savecaliforniasolar/
  - ThatPlayer 3y ago
    Home solar installs (and that change) would be NEM, not TOU. California had a mandate to move everyone to TOU a while back, though some might still be on the old plans.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - dv_dt 3y ago
      As a residential electricity user there is little reason for me to be on tou unless I also have an Nem for installed solar. All the tou might do is expose me to inconvenience and high costs.
      - ThatPlayer 3y ago
        That really depends on your usages. The extreme examples are if you have an electric car that you can charge overnight instead of peak hours, or work any shift that's not 9-5 so that you avoid the 6-9pm peak hours. And of course the whole point is to incentivize changing usages to using less power during peak hours, which it does better than the old plans. There's always going to be a slight inconvenience to get everyone to change habits.

nonfamous 3y ago

I had a similar contract when I lived in IL, and I also liked it and it made me more conscious of my energy usage patterns. But there was always this niggling concern that the price could spike to 200x like it did in Texas, without me being able to react. Regulation to cap the peak rate would help allay consumer fears, IMO, while still offering ample profit potential to providers.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
Even with a cap, it feels like it would just take one freak occurrence (power plant/transformer/blizzard) meltdown to erase any potential savings from subscribing to dynamic pricing.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  Nah, just switch over to a generator for your bare essential needs and hunker down for a bit. You can't go into a dynamic environment and only plan for upsides.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  Fixed pricing is basically dynamic pricing + insurance. In the expected case, you pay more over any period of time if you take the insurance. If you can afford the risks, going without insurance tends to be cheaper.
- everybodyknows 3y ago
  In California TOU plans, there are caps on all three of: 1. Price per kWh - $1 last I checked 2. Hours per day at max price - ~9 3. Days per year max price charged - ~10 Even in the worst case, not too scary.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
    With the horror stories in Texas, I was assuming significantly worse caps. Regardless, I have very little consumption I can time shift to off-peak hours (laundry? dishwasher?), so dynamic pricing would unlikely ever work out for me.