3 ms·

Yes, I learned about Imago dialogue through a book called "Getting the Love You Want" (which sounded gimmicky, but it was recommended by a therapist friend, and

by wenc 3y ago

Yes, I learned about Imago dialogue through a book called "Getting the Love You Want" (which sounded gimmicky, but it was recommended by a therapist friend, and I've found it surprisingly practical, not just for intimate relationships but also just relationships with friends and coworkers). The book Nonviolent Communication also basically teaches a similar structured conversation technique. It's the stuff that most marriage therapists teach, but it was a revelation to me. I'm a brutally direct communicator (and I justify myself by saying "I'm honest and expect honesty from people") but I also tend to damage relationships (surprise! communication is not about 1 person's preference but 2). After many relationships that didn't work out, I decided to take a step back and ask myself what I could be doing better, and one of the things was learning to communicate in a way that others found less alienating, without compromising my own style. I stumbled upon the Imago technique and it has worked really well. One of the major takeaways for me that it is important to validate people and be curious, whether you agree with them or not. I used to think this was a contradiction, and that bad ideas need to be corrected immediately, but I've since learned that it's possible to validate people without agreeing with them. The point is to make them feel heard first, and then I can present my own view. Here's an example of how validation works (without agreeing): https://www.onsolidgroundcounseling.com/post/2015/08/31/creating-closeness-in-disagreement-the-power-of-validation https://www.onsolidgroundcounseling.com/post/2015/08/31/crea...

JackFr 3y ago
When many people describe themselves as brutally honest, they seem to believe that being honest is a license for brutality.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rgifford 3y ago
  Oddly I quite like these people -- provided they're internally and externally consistent. It's refreshing to say, "you're being an asshole" and have a friend go, "oh my bad, I do that sometimes." Most young folks can't imagine having been an asshole and they call themselves emotionally intelligent without realizing their feelings are a tyranny. They've unsubscribed from anything that ever brought them even minor discomfort. Their social contract basically amounts to "lie to me and I'll lie to you." They are huge wusses. If a friend asks you if their hair looks nice, it's kinder to say, "your hair looks like my nana's and she's been dead for 10 years" then it is to let dozens of folks think the same thing of them. I have a couple friends who would tell me the first thing -- they're whose opinion I trust. If they told me that, I'd piss my self laughing even if I just paid $70 for the haircut. Modern day stoics IMO. They're smart enough to know how to be like-able, they understand the fluff-each-other's-shared-delusions game, they just don't want to play. When they tell you something kind, you know it was real. Most of my friends who are brutally honest try to say the things they're thinking as much as possible. They want that from others too. It can be super off putting, especially if you need to believe certain things about yourself.
  - bawolff 3y ago
    > provided they're internally and externally consistent. People claiming to be "brutally honest" is usually a red flag because they are almost never consistent about it. Its usually a phrase used to self-justify brutality with little regard for honesty. Its sort of like the whole "if you dont accept me at my worse you dont deserve me at my best". There is nothing wrong in principle if it is taken literally - everyone has bad days and its unreasonable to expect perfection all the time; humans make mistakes, etc. But pretty much everyone using that phrase uses it as a self-justification to do what they want without regard for who they hurt. Idk, im always wary of any phrase that can be twisted to justify behaving badly towards others. Some people hurt other people, and they'll take any turn of phrase, twist it, in order to self-justify to themselves that what they are doing is ok.
    - kgwxd 3y ago
      All aphorisms are dismissings in a wisdom hat.
  - striking 3y ago
    > It's refreshing to say, "you're being an asshole" and have a friend go, "oh my bad, I do that sometimes." Would the apology not be more effective if it didn't include the attempt at excusing one's behavior? > Most young folks [...] Would your argument not be more effective if you made an attempt to avoid unnecessarily painting a broad, diverse demographic with one brushstroke, especially given that your argument doesn't actually hinge on the people being young specifically? > If they told me that, I'd piss my self laughing even if I just paid $70 for the haircut. What about the things you don't realize you're sensitive about? Is it possible your friends are merely the same brand of insensitive as you, and therefore insensitive in a way that is acceptable to you? Is it possible that you're demanding that everyone around you have precisely the same flavor of insensitivity as yourself? > Most of my friends who are brutally honest try to say the things they're thinking as much as possible. Isn't this a really ineffective and imprecise way to communicate? Won't this lead to a pile of followup questions from folks who don't understand the implicit social cues you share with those you're close with? Being honest doesn't have to mean being unfiltered and brash. Being an effective communicator means taking into account how your message might be received and tailoring it so it's not easily misunderstood. And calling people "wusses" for merely not subscribing to your brand of communication is itself an ironically cowardly act, a running away from the responsibility you might have for the words you say. It is exactly the kind of thing someone who needs to believe certain things about themselves might say instead of growing up and treating others with respect.
- underratedbug 3y ago
  Like the “but I’m an asshole, so it’s ok” get out of jail free card. No dude you’re right, you are an asshole, but that doesn’t mean I’m ok with you being a dick. Brutal honesty is just being an asshole. You can also be an asshole dishonestly. The part that makes you an asshole is the brutal bit.
bradknowles 3y ago
I was introduced to Imago therapy many years ago, back when I was still just dating the woman who is now my wife. I've recommended the book "Getting the Love You Want" to several people. I can tell you this much -- of all the things I've done in my life, and all the various types of pain I've suffered, the "active listening" part required of Imago is the very hardest thing I've ever done. And probably the most important.

by wenc 3y ago

JackFr 3y ago

When many people describe themselves as brutally honest, they seem to believe that being honest is a license for brutality.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rgifford 3y ago
Oddly I quite like these people -- provided they're internally and externally consistent. It's refreshing to say, "you're being an asshole" and have a friend go, "oh my bad, I do that sometimes." Most young folks can't imagine having been an asshole and they call themselves emotionally intelligent without realizing their feelings are a tyranny. They've unsubscribed from anything that ever brought them even minor discomfort. Their social contract basically amounts to "lie to me and I'll lie to you." They are huge wusses. If a friend asks you if their hair looks nice, it's kinder to say, "your hair looks like my nana's and she's been dead for 10 years" then it is to let dozens of folks think the same thing of them. I have a couple friends who would tell me the first thing -- they're whose opinion I trust. If they told me that, I'd piss my self laughing even if I just paid $70 for the haircut. Modern day stoics IMO. They're smart enough to know how to be like-able, they understand the fluff-each-other's-shared-delusions game, they just don't want to play. When they tell you something kind, you know it was real. Most of my friends who are brutally honest try to say the things they're thinking as much as possible. They want that from others too. It can be super off putting, especially if you need to believe certain things about yourself.
- bawolff 3y ago
  > provided they're internally and externally consistent. People claiming to be "brutally honest" is usually a red flag because they are almost never consistent about it. Its usually a phrase used to self-justify brutality with little regard for honesty. Its sort of like the whole "if you dont accept me at my worse you dont deserve me at my best". There is nothing wrong in principle if it is taken literally - everyone has bad days and its unreasonable to expect perfection all the time; humans make mistakes, etc. But pretty much everyone using that phrase uses it as a self-justification to do what they want without regard for who they hurt. Idk, im always wary of any phrase that can be twisted to justify behaving badly towards others. Some people hurt other people, and they'll take any turn of phrase, twist it, in order to self-justify to themselves that what they are doing is ok.
  - kgwxd 3y ago
    All aphorisms are dismissings in a wisdom hat.
- striking 3y ago
  > It's refreshing to say, "you're being an asshole" and have a friend go, "oh my bad, I do that sometimes." Would the apology not be more effective if it didn't include the attempt at excusing one's behavior? > Most young folks [...] Would your argument not be more effective if you made an attempt to avoid unnecessarily painting a broad, diverse demographic with one brushstroke, especially given that your argument doesn't actually hinge on the people being young specifically? > If they told me that, I'd piss my self laughing even if I just paid $70 for the haircut. What about the things you don't realize you're sensitive about? Is it possible your friends are merely the same brand of insensitive as you, and therefore insensitive in a way that is acceptable to you? Is it possible that you're demanding that everyone around you have precisely the same flavor of insensitivity as yourself? > Most of my friends who are brutally honest try to say the things they're thinking as much as possible. Isn't this a really ineffective and imprecise way to communicate? Won't this lead to a pile of followup questions from folks who don't understand the implicit social cues you share with those you're close with? Being honest doesn't have to mean being unfiltered and brash. Being an effective communicator means taking into account how your message might be received and tailoring it so it's not easily misunderstood. And calling people "wusses" for merely not subscribing to your brand of communication is itself an ironically cowardly act, a running away from the responsibility you might have for the words you say. It is exactly the kind of thing someone who needs to believe certain things about themselves might say instead of growing up and treating others with respect.
underratedbug 3y ago
Like the “but I’m an asshole, so it’s ok” get out of jail free card. No dude you’re right, you are an asshole, but that doesn’t mean I’m ok with you being a dick. Brutal honesty is just being an asshole. You can also be an asshole dishonestly. The part that makes you an asshole is the brutal bit.

bradknowles 3y ago

I was introduced to Imago therapy many years ago, back when I was still just dating the woman who is now my wife. I've recommended the book "Getting the Love You Want" to several people. I can tell you this much -- of all the things I've done in my life, and all the various types of pain I've suffered, the "active listening" part required of Imago is the very hardest thing I've ever done. And probably the most important.