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Europe data salary benchmark 2023
- negamax 3y agoEuropean salary data without taxation and benefits is useless.
- mahmoudhossam 3y agoTaxation is highly dependent on location and personal factors (single income vs double income household) and other factors that are irrelevant in this context. Also "benefits" in the American sense aren't really a thing in the EU.
- Yujf 3y agoI don't know "the american sense", but benfits are definetely a thing in Belgium. I think like 60+% of engineers get company cars.
- akavi 3y agoI assume that cars are not seen as a taxable benefit in Belgium?
- dukeyukey 3y agoPrivate health insurance is taxable in the UK but every non-intern tech job I've had has had it as a benefit.
- akavi 3y agoInteresting. Curious if that's cultural influence from the US (where it isn't taxable)
- jonasdegendt 3y agoIt is but at a hilariously cheap rate. It’s pennies on the dollar (or euro, in this case) compared to owning a car outright. It’s a fringe benefit that was invented in order to enable employers to sweeten the pay package without having to straight up pay more, and respectively pay a lot more taxes. We’ve a large bunch of these tax efficient fringe benefits in Belgium but the company car is by far the one that provides the most value.
- Hamuko 3y agohttps://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-company-car-conundrum/ https://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-company-car-conundru... >Of the 6 million cars on Belgian roads, about 10 percent are company cars. >Even a first job often comes with a car, and most employees also get unlimited fuel cards. That sounds fucking crazy.
- photonbeam 3y agoMy dad had an unlimited fuel card for a company car, everyone used that car frivolously
- Yujf 3y agoYup, so Belgium has a lot of weird things like that, but it's really hard to take it away since it's such an important part of salary for many people and taxation is really high so most people are very opposed to losing benefits like this.
- Hamuko 3y agoI've never heard of an engineer getting a company car in Finland. People mostly just get a phone plan and some sports and culture vouchers.
- mahmoudhossam 3y agoThat is also my experience in Germany, minus the phone plan.
- mahmoudhossam 3y agoI was referring to healthcare which constitutes the bulk of benefits in the US. Also PTO is more regulated in the EU than it is in the US.
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago> constitutes the bulk of benefits in the US. What? What do you mean by bulk?
- mahmoudhossam 3y agoAs in healthcare is very expensive over there and that most of it is tied to the employer. I'm not sure what you're asking here.
- cscurmudgeon 3y agoIt is expensive but salaries are also higher. Most people pay a few hundred at max per month on several thousand dollars of salary. I am not sure what you mean by saying "constitutes the bulk of benefits in the US" https://www.statista.com/statistics/631987/percent-of-income-spent-on-health-plan-by-us-employees/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/631987/percent-of-income... Do you mean outside of plain salary, medical benefits are the highest? I think that may be more correct. But even that may not be universally true. For folks in software, at least matching retirement benefits will outweigh medical benefits
- mahmoudhossam 3y agoYes, I'm not counting the salary as a benefit. I'm not really familiar with US pension plans so I stand corrected.
- Yujf 3y agoYeah healthcare is for sure better in EU and so less of a benefit, but I still get additional insurance through my company and most white collar jobs do. It's for the extra costs of hospitalisation such as upcharges for a single room and other costs general health care doesn't cover.
- nerbert 3y agoDoesn't 60% of Belgium get company cars? Not something related to engineering, it's one of the basic perks a lot of people get.
- jonasdegendt 3y agoNo, it’s definitely still a mostly white collar type job benefit, and about 14% of working people get a company car. This translates to about half a million company cars.
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago> I think like 60+% of engineers get company cars. Honest question: How useful is when we frequently hear that Europe doesn't use cars as much as in the US? I can't fathom someone in a major European city finding much use for a car.
- shjake 3y agoThat’s more of a stereotype which is really only accurate in some cities and even there usually only in the center areas/old town. 50-70%+ of all Europeans who live in urban areas commute by car* https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Travel_distance_per_person_per_day_by_main_travel_mode_for_urban_mobility_on_all_days_(%25)_v3.png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
- Yujf 3y agoVery usefull. Many people live outside the city centers (which are very small in Belgium) and use cars to commute. Public transport is relatively good within a city, but if you come from outside the city it can get really bad. 20 min by car can be 1 hour by bus for example.
- ChuckNorris89 3y agoTaxation is kinda relevant because there can be huge differences between countries which translate to what you take home. For example 80k might sounds good in one country but after tax you might take home less than if you made just 60k in another country.
- mahmoudhossam 3y agoTrue, but I'm not sure how you'd reflect something like that here tbh.
- carom 3y agoPretty sure a month or two of vacation is common in the EU.
- mahmoudhossam 3y agoOnly those aren't benefits, they're basic rights protected by law.
- shjake 3y agoAre they, though? The legal minimum in most EU states is just 20 work days which isn’t even a full month.
- ChuckNorris89 3y agoIt's not anywhere I lived, not even close. Now I have 25 days per year with up to 40 is the max I've seen for places with a lot of overtime. Mid twenties to early thirties is the average vacation days per year people in the EU get. The rest are fringe outliers.
- shjake 3y agoComparing anything but the total cost for employer (salary + taxes they pay + benefits) doesn’t make that much sense.
- itcrowd 3y agoThere's a huge difference in CoL between the mentioned metro areas. Pretty useless comparison in that regard.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago>There's a huge difference in CoL between the mentioned metro areas. Then good thing the title is honest and explicitly says "salary benchmarks" and not CoL benchmarks. CoL varies from person and lifestyle.
- Barrin92 3y agocost of living is highly relevant when you compare salary data because it's one of the primary factors that determines the cost of labor. If you pay a Berlin salary in SF nobody's gonna show up because that doesn't cover your apartment rent. It tells you little about how much you effectively pocket. If you want to get some use out of this data you need to adjust it for purchasing power.
- koliber 3y agoYou’re right. Which is why it’s great that this link was posted. You can now take this available data and combine it with you understanding of the CoL on the various locations. Otherwise you’d only have a feel for the CoL.
- rocketbop 3y agoCost of living seems to vary as much if not more than by if and when you bought your house than where you live in Western Europe at the moment.
- hereonout2 3y agoAbsolutely in the UK and especially London, I could have a much more comfortable life on a much reduced salary had I brought a house 10 years ago.
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- thomasingalls 3y agoWhy isn't France ever in these datasets?
- joshvm 3y agoAlso Switzerland (or Scandinavia for that matter) which pays similar to the US for tech jobs. Even academic jobs here pay exceptionally well compared to anywhere else in Europe. Starting salary for a good data scientist role (requiring some domain expertise) here is close to 100k CHF (not including Big Tech who can easily pay 1.5x more). Cost of living is high, but frankly London is comparable in terms of rent nowadays if you consider like-for-like (i.e. centre of the city, short commute).
- suslik 3y agoScandinavia is nothing like that, unfortunately.
- joshvm 3y agoSalaries generally are comparable to or higher than the rest Europe though, so it seems odd to leave those countries out. https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/norway https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/norway
- usgroup 3y agoThis looks false to me for the UK. See for comparison: https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/ https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/
- hondadriver 3y agoThat seems way more realistic. The salaries in the original article are not common at all for software development positions in Europe as far as I know ...
- emptysongglass 3y agoWe are getting absolutely fleeced by our American counterparts and paying higher taxes on top. Yet we're every bit as good developers, DevOps Engineers, SREs, you name it in tech. And cost of living in US metro areas vs Europe does not even begin to explain why. I wish we'd collectively take a harder stance on the bargaining line because it is insane to me we be paid half, a third less and then shell out very high taxes on top (OK Bulgaria you get a pass).
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y agoIn the states, we'd be getting paid less if the companies should get away with it. And in the states, we definitely don't collectively bargain. So something else is the issue.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- MrBuddyCasino 3y agoYes, there are hardly any European companies with FAANG level profitability. Thats it.
- tough 3y agoVC Money is US mostly too Europe-founded startups end up in delaware because of ycombinator and all the SF money that does have an apetite for high risk startups unlike europe. Here we waste billions on shady govt mandated stuff and thats' it
- KptMarchewa 3y agoNo, that's mainly lack of single consumer market, and the markets being too small to meaningfully start B2C companies.
- MrBuddyCasino 3y agoYou mean like Spotify, that started in the large and populous country of Sweden?
- madballster 3y agoShould normalize this to working days & hours. Germany has up to 6 weeks of paid vacation per year vs. ~10 days in the US.
- refurb 3y agoNobody in FAANG tech in the US is getting 2 weeks of vacation. 4-5 weeks is more common.
- dhdhhdd 3y agoIs 10 normal? Msft: up to 25, google: 20-25, meta: 21 (or more?). The worst I heard is apple with 12 days at the beginning
- Mizoguchi 3y agoLegally is zero days in the US. I met people with 3-5 days per year. Most companies give you 10 days to start so that's considered standard. It took me 15 years to get to 20. There are some exceptions of course with a generous amount of days or unlimited vacation, but the vast mayority of corporations in the US go with 10,15,20 and maybe 25 once you spend 30+ years with the company.
- strato-cumulus 3y agoThe legal minimum is 20 working days, though. The people in tech I've met in Berlin are getting anything between 26 and 30. My contract starts with 27 days and this number will be raised every year I'm working there till it reaches 30.
- Mizoguchi 3y agoI worked for varios European companies in the US traveling often and for long periods of time to Europe for work. I must say at least in places like Austria and Germany things like groceries, utilities and eating out seem to be considerably cheaper (and much better). I'm currently paying $250 per month for water in the US for a household of three and this is not in San Francisco. We also work more hours in general. My counterparts in Germany had over 30 vacation days and at least one holiday per month. Taxes here are lower, but just because we pay other big expenses ourselves such as health care. But the real hit comes when you add kids. In Germany it seems you are given even more paid time off work to spend time with your kids and travel with them which is awesome, besides your employer picking up some of the bills like education. Forget that in the US. Here you are on your own. $chool, extra curricular activitie$, nannie$. Money money money. Some european countries enjoy very high standards of living and great services and infrastructure, and that cannot possibly be free. So salaries as a metric alone are meaningless, at the end of the day what matters is how much money is left in the bank after you pay all the bills to keep up with a certain life style. In the US a decent, not even a good life style costs a lot of money, almost like a hidden tax you need to pay.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago>Austria and Germany things like groceries, utilities and eating out seem to be considerably cheaper (and much bette Check salaries in Austria. The you realize why stuff is cheaper there.
- retrac98 3y agoI stopped paying attention to these sorts of stats when I realised it’s far more effective to focus on improving what I’m making in a way that doesn’t compromise other things I value in life (leisure time, location, type of work, etc) than it is worrying about what people in other economies make with no context.
- MichaelRo 3y agoThe figures are inflated because they focus on outliers. The vast majority of employers in EU are plain boring companies, telekom, industrial, automotive, and products that have a market but not that of Google, Facebook, Amazon. There's little difference between the salary of a software developer and that of a teacher or police officer, developers in EU here are less of a privileged caste isolated in their hundreds of thousands of dollars per year bubble. I myself live in Eastern Europe and make €60,000 per year gross, which is about the median pay for a developer in Western Europe. Tax rate is 35% so I'm left with =~ €40,000 net. Apart from real estate, prices are on par with Western Europe, meaning that food, energy, transportation cost about the same. I could make more but that would erode my competitive advantage, the employer needs to feel they're getting a good deal, so I also don't need to go above and beyond to prove myself, just do my job. With work from home there are also other possibilities which I won't discuss here, only that they landed me another €30,000 net last year, there's a saying in my native language which goes about "the gentle lamb sucks on two sheep" ;) What makes the difference is real estate, my 65 square meters apartment + garage sells for about €100,000 and I'm renting another one as my home office for €300 per month (not including expenses, which add up to another €200 in the winter). My cousin who lives in Paris owns a 30 square meters apartment evaluated at €300,000+ and was asked a million euro for an 80 square meters one. Ridiculous if you ask me, he doesn't make vastly more than I do, in order to be able to afford the larger one.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago>I myself live in Eastern Europe and make €60,000 per year gross That's a very good salary for Romania. Can I ask your seniority level. DO you work for a company on a local employment contract or freelance for outside remote companies?
- MichaelRo 3y agoYes, it's in the high range, but I have 20+ years of software development experience, C++ and quantitative finance although I only do the former now because I was getting the same money as doing just development and working twice , with the latter being particularly nasty stuff. Also Java and lately Kotlin (Android). The €60k are on local employment contract. Besides that I get the odd remote freelance contract, usually because of my trading and quant finance domain knowledge.