5 ms·

I've never heard this before and I'd say the exact opposite is true. A good example is that jobs like consulting, finance, and FAANG all have interview processe

I've never heard this before and I'd say the exact opposite is true. A good example is that jobs like consulting, finance, and FAANG all have interview processes and selection criteria to hire type A people who will ignore pareto optimization and eke out the extra 1% quality for 50% more effort to get themselves to the top of the class. And I've never heard of anywhere that's looking for genius slackers, that's absolutely the worst profile to have.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
And yet the people who work 50% harder to eek out 1% quality don't get promoted, and the people who do nothing but game the system for promotions get promoted. So, I'd say the opposite is true.
- viscanti 3y ago
  Are the people gaming the system being rewarded for innate talent? Or is it hard work at gaming the system (presumably if it was easy to game the system everyone would do it)?
  - francisofascii 3y ago
    Hmmm I would argue you have to have a certain personality type to game the system. So that falls more into innate talent.
  - lloeki 3y ago
    value systems come into play and many a mind revile at the idea of gaming the system, however easy it would be for them.
  - User23 3y ago
    I think physical attractiveness, both male and female, plays a far larger role in promotion decisions than anyone realizes, including those making the decision. The halo effect is very real. This leads to a case where you have persons who are, in some sense, gaming the system and might not even know that they are.
- cardy31 3y ago
  Yeah and even getting into FAANG is often about gaming the interview system anyway. I don’t think FAANG really manages to select the top 1% of hard workers.
  - wtetzner 3y ago
    How do you game the interview system? Practice leetcode problems a lot? Sounds like a lot of work.
    - dasil003 3y ago
      Yes, and interviewing in general. You think that’s a lot of work to get your foot in the door and $500k+ in a relatively cushy salaried position and top tech brand name on your resume?
      - wtetzner 3y ago
        You also need to do multiple system design interviews. Yes, you might be able to game it, but I doubt you could game it and still be an incompetent programmer. You also wouldn't be able to keep that job very long, given the way performance reviews tend to be done. They probably don't have the top 1% of hard workers, but getting and staying there almost certainly requires a certain amount of hard work.
meany 3y ago
When I interview people I tell them, 'You can work long, hard, or smart, but at Amazon.com you can't choose two out of three," Bezos wrote in the 1997 letter.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  And as Bezos gazes down from space at his domain, I'm sure he appreciates your dedication, or probably would if he knew your name/serial number. I assume he can monitor all from his super-yacht as well, but somehow it just doesn't feel like hard work when done from a super-yacht.
  - xnickb 3y ago
    I guess he thinks he is the smart working kind then?
fauria 3y ago
I'll quote Larry Wall here: "We will encourage you to develop the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris."
- hgsgm 3y ago
  Those are in service of "getting things done" as Spolsky wrote, not navel gazing.
l__l 3y ago
I genuinely think this is a UK/US thing (limiting to those countries because that's the limited experience I have); in the UK this is absolutely true. There is a definite cultural thing going on where people play down how much effort they put in to things. It's definitely 'uncool', throughout school, higher education and in the workplace, to be super keen. Contrast to the US: American colleagues I've had have all agreed that it's kind of the reverse on that side of the pond. I've heard people brag about the hours they've put in to work; that would be a complete embarrassment over here, especially if the work turns out not to be top-tier.
oh_sigh 3y ago
False. I have worked at three FAANGs and I am a type B if anything. Having said that, I'm probably under leveled compared to what people think I am, because I don't want to give up my ample free time. If I'm making 400k/yr and work 30hrs/week, why would I want to make say 480k/yr and work 40hrs/week?

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago

And yet the people who work 50% harder to eek out 1% quality don't get promoted, and the people who do nothing but game the system for promotions get promoted. So, I'd say the opposite is true.

viscanti 3y ago
Are the people gaming the system being rewarded for innate talent? Or is it hard work at gaming the system (presumably if it was easy to game the system everyone would do it)?
- francisofascii 3y ago
  Hmmm I would argue you have to have a certain personality type to game the system. So that falls more into innate talent.
- lloeki 3y ago
  value systems come into play and many a mind revile at the idea of gaming the system, however easy it would be for them.
- User23 3y ago
  I think physical attractiveness, both male and female, plays a far larger role in promotion decisions than anyone realizes, including those making the decision. The halo effect is very real. This leads to a case where you have persons who are, in some sense, gaming the system and might not even know that they are.
cardy31 3y ago
Yeah and even getting into FAANG is often about gaming the interview system anyway. I don’t think FAANG really manages to select the top 1% of hard workers.
- wtetzner 3y ago
  How do you game the interview system? Practice leetcode problems a lot? Sounds like a lot of work.
  - dasil003 3y ago
    Yes, and interviewing in general. You think that’s a lot of work to get your foot in the door and $500k+ in a relatively cushy salaried position and top tech brand name on your resume?
    - wtetzner 3y ago
      You also need to do multiple system design interviews. Yes, you might be able to game it, but I doubt you could game it and still be an incompetent programmer. You also wouldn't be able to keep that job very long, given the way performance reviews tend to be done. They probably don't have the top 1% of hard workers, but getting and staying there almost certainly requires a certain amount of hard work.

meany 3y ago

When I interview people I tell them, 'You can work long, hard, or smart, but at Amazon.com you can't choose two out of three," Bezos wrote in the 1997 letter.

hotpotamus 3y ago
And as Bezos gazes down from space at his domain, I'm sure he appreciates your dedication, or probably would if he knew your name/serial number. I assume he can monitor all from his super-yacht as well, but somehow it just doesn't feel like hard work when done from a super-yacht.
- xnickb 3y ago
  I guess he thinks he is the smart working kind then?

fauria 3y ago

I'll quote Larry Wall here: "We will encourage you to develop the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris."

hgsgm 3y ago
Those are in service of "getting things done" as Spolsky wrote, not navel gazing.

l__l 3y ago

I genuinely think this is a UK/US thing (limiting to those countries because that's the limited experience I have); in the UK this is absolutely true. There is a definite cultural thing going on where people play down how much effort they put in to things. It's definitely 'uncool', throughout school, higher education and in the workplace, to be super keen. Contrast to the US: American colleagues I've had have all agreed that it's kind of the reverse on that side of the pond. I've heard people brag about the hours they've put in to work; that would be a complete embarrassment over here, especially if the work turns out not to be top-tier.

oh_sigh 3y ago

False. I have worked at three FAANGs and I am a type B if anything. Having said that, I'm probably under leveled compared to what people think I am, because I don't want to give up my ample free time. If I'm making 400k/yr and work 30hrs/week, why would I want to make say 480k/yr and work 40hrs/week?