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> Monotype fonts, which have been specially adapted to these recommendations, carry the name affix, "1450". None of those commas should be present, and they si
by chrismorgan 3y ago
> Monotype fonts, which have been specially adapted to these recommendations, carry the name affix, "1450".
None of those commas should be present, and they significantly change the meaning of the sentence. With them (especially the first), it means that all Monotype fonts have been specially adapted to these recommendations and carry The Name Affix, which is “1450”. The commas serve equivalently to parentheses: “Monotype fonts (which have been specially adapted to these recommendations) carry the name affix ("1450").”
What they meant was: “Monotype fonts which have been specially adapted to these recommendations carry the name affix "1450".” That is: the subset of Monotype fonts so adapted are identified by the presence of the “1450” name affix.
A remark like this would normally be off-topic on HN, but I mention it because (a) the line threw me, for a couple of readings, and I only resolved it because I know Monotype fonts have been round much longer than this DIN 1450 thing and by inference from the next sentence; and (b) correct language usage is at least as important as font when it comes to “barrier-free reading”.
Some of the other commas in the article are also wrong in the same and similar ways. I’m curious whether there might be something about comma usage or sentence structure in the native language of the author, which I’m guessing isn’t English. (There are a few other mildly unusual or clumsy word choices and sentence structures, and a few minor errors. Given the context, probably German.)
- JdeBP 3y agoIt's fairly obviously primarily targetting a German market. There are no French and Spanish versions, and I suspect that the English version is there as the fallback for whatever international market there is. The German language version has fewer commas: * https://www.linotype.com/de/6990/din-1450.html https://www.linotype.com/de/6990/din-1450.html I wonder how badly Hacker News would have coped with a submission in German. (-:
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Eduard 3y ago"Schriften von Monotype, die speziell an diese Empfehlungen angepasst wurden, tragen den Namenszusatz „1450“."
- pavlov 3y agoThe commas around the “which” clause seem to follow German rules for embedded subordinate clauses: https://www.germanveryeasy.com/comma https://www.germanveryeasy.com/comma
- fnord77 3y agothe only extraneous comma is after "affix"
- adrianmonk 3y agoNo, the first two commas are extraneous as well. From https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/usage-of-essential-and-nonessential-clauses https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/usage-of-essen... : > Essential clauses modify key words and are important to the main point of a sentence. Nonessential clauses provide superfluous information that, while interesting, does not change the main point of a sentence. Nonessential clauses are offset by punctuation such as commas or parentheses to indicate the clause as an aside. With the commas, it is a nonessential clause, which means the meaning should stay the same if it is removed. And that would turn the sentence into this: > Monotype fonts carry the name affix "1450". But that isn't the meaning of the sentence. It's not true that Monotype fonts (all of them, in general) have "1450" in their names. Only the ones that follow the recommendation do.
- noitpmeder 3y agoThis is the kind of assertive falseness I associate with ChatGPT!
- hommelix 3y ago> Some of the other commas in the article are also wrong in the same and similar ways. I’m curious whether there might be something about comma usage or sentence structure in the native language of the author, which I’m guessing isn’t English. (There are a few other mildly unusual or clumsy word choices and sentence structures, and a few minor errors.) Yes this translation from German. The comma fits the way German grammar recommends it. Some other clues: DIN is a German standard organization and the company advertising this new font is a German Ltd (GmbH).
- kwhitefoot 3y agoPerhaps the translator was American. A lot of American text looks like a pepper shaker full off commas was upended over it.
- noitpmeder 3y agoAt least we don't have all these 'u's polluting our words! I'll die before I spell 'color' differently! :)
- grey_earthling 3y ago> “Monotype fonts which have been specially adapted to these recommendations carry the name affix "1450".” Even this isn't wholly clear. They should have said: > “Monotype fonts that have been specially adapted to these recommendations carry the name affix "1450".” The word “that” defines the subject of the sentence; the word “which” describes the already-defined subject. This is a rule of thumb usually expressed as: “‘that’ defines; ‘which’ describes”.
- 082349872349872 3y agocf https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36092771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36092771
- quietbritishjim 3y agoIf we're going to be pedantic about language use (and it appears that we are): "cf" is short for the Latin for "compare [with]". To me, that only makes sense when the reference is something very analogous, e.g. you're talking about caramelising onions and you cite an article about caramelising carrots. Most of the time it's used, including this time, it would be more appropriate to just say "see also".
- meghan_rain 3y agoThis entire thread is peak HN lmao
- 082349872349872 3y agoTIL — going forward I'll use see for 'compare' and cf for 'contrast'
- the-printer 3y agoSee also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36038796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36038796
- 3y ago
- stumblers 3y agoThey're using the words "Monotype Fonts" as a type shop, a brand, a company...I forget which but I set type decades ago and remember the name. They're not referring to 'monotype fonts' as a type of font, like serif or sans serif.
- mannykannot 3y agoI feel the issue applies in this case also, unless all of Monotype Fonts' fonts are DIN 1450 fonts.
- trinix912 3y agoPerhaps because nouns are usually capitalized in German. Seriously tho, does it really matter that much? There are native English speakers who write worse than that.
- throwaway290 3y agoIt matters that if you are writing illegibly even the ultra legible typeface is not going to help that much
- nyanpasu64 3y agoEven worse, when reading this sentence in the comments, I thought it was referring to monospace coding fonts, which happen to share the same "legibility features" as required by DIN 1450 (tailed l, dotted 0, etc.)
- mannykannot 3y agoAs this sentence immediately follows a paragraph introducing the new standard, I would probably go with something like "The affix '1450' is used to designate those monotype fonts which have been specially adapted to these recommendations." Now I am wondering if the different rules for verb placement in German and English contribute to the difficulty of punctuating translations unambiguously.
- jhgb 3y agoWhat you're seeing here is absolutely English written by a German. In German, restrictive clauses are separated by commas. This language feature seeps into English written by Germans by means of interference.