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I‘d agree to that. Aesthetics need not be wasteful, minimalism can be beautiful if done right and be very efficient, as the whole APL ecosystem shows. Its just

I‘d agree to that. Aesthetics need not be wasteful, minimalism can be beautiful if done right and be very efficient, as the whole APL ecosystem shows. Its just that Motif attempts neither baroque opulence nor restrained elegance, its just carelessly ugly, and that is a sin against life.

arp242 3y ago
What is "ugly" or "beautiful" is really subjective. See brutalist architecture for example: opinions are (strongly) divided. Or the divided opinions on various styles of music. etc. I personally don't care much for the Motif looks (although I've only used OpenMotif – I'm not sure how it compares to IRIX's implementation; from some quick screenshots I looked up it seems IRIX looked better) but describing it as objectively "ugly" or "a sin against life" is just wrong.
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  > What is "ugly" or "beautiful" is really subjective. No.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >What is "ugly" or "beautiful" is really subjective. See brutalist architecture for example: opinions are (strongly) divided Strongly divided, as to the strength of like or dislike, yes. But as for the split, it's pretentious architects and a handful of laymen outliers on one side, and billions of people on the other. And whenever people vote with their wallets (as tourists, or picking where to live, etc) they shit all over brutalist monstrocities.
  - arp242 3y ago
    I've seen quite a few people defend brutalist architecture on HN, I'm not a fan of dismissing people's tastes as "pretentious". Plus some of those comments (which I can't be bothered to look up right now) have convinced me that the things people really hate is the worst of brutalism, rather than the concept as such (it's still not my favourite style, but overall less bad than I thought before). But we can use other examples – I don't really want to talk about brutalism as such – like metal music, or paintings from Picasso or Mondriaan, or the discussion about whether or not Alien is a good film that still holds up in 2023 from earlier this week, or any number of things.
  - msla 3y ago
    Examples of Brutalism: Hill of the Buddha, Sapporo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_the_Buddha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_the_Buddha Cathedral of Saint Mary of the Assumption, San Francisco: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Saint_Mary_of_the_Assumption_(San_Francisco) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Saint_Mary_of_the... Spomenik Memorials, Former Yugoslavia: https://www.spomenikdatabase.org/ https://www.spomenikdatabase.org/ None of those are ugly.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      My eyes, the goggles, they do nothing! While those are not hideous, they're hardly anything to write home about, much less call beautiful either. Compare them with a traditional budhist shrine, national monument, or church, and they're seen as the regression to ideology and "architect as god" arbitrariness that they are.
hulitu 3y ago
You should see Android or Win 10 for what it means ugly.
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  are we going to enumerate all the ugly things in the world now

arp242 3y ago

What is "ugly" or "beautiful" is really subjective. See brutalist architecture for example: opinions are (strongly) divided. Or the divided opinions on various styles of music. etc. I personally don't care much for the Motif looks (although I've only used OpenMotif – I'm not sure how it compares to IRIX's implementation; from some quick screenshots I looked up it seems IRIX looked better) but describing it as objectively "ugly" or "a sin against life" is just wrong.

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
> What is "ugly" or "beautiful" is really subjective. No.
coldtea 3y ago
>What is "ugly" or "beautiful" is really subjective. See brutalist architecture for example: opinions are (strongly) divided Strongly divided, as to the strength of like or dislike, yes. But as for the split, it's pretentious architects and a handful of laymen outliers on one side, and billions of people on the other. And whenever people vote with their wallets (as tourists, or picking where to live, etc) they shit all over brutalist monstrocities.
- arp242 3y ago
  I've seen quite a few people defend brutalist architecture on HN, I'm not a fan of dismissing people's tastes as "pretentious". Plus some of those comments (which I can't be bothered to look up right now) have convinced me that the things people really hate is the worst of brutalism, rather than the concept as such (it's still not my favourite style, but overall less bad than I thought before). But we can use other examples – I don't really want to talk about brutalism as such – like metal music, or paintings from Picasso or Mondriaan, or the discussion about whether or not Alien is a good film that still holds up in 2023 from earlier this week, or any number of things.
- msla 3y ago
  Examples of Brutalism: Hill of the Buddha, Sapporo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_the_Buddha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_the_Buddha Cathedral of Saint Mary of the Assumption, San Francisco: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Saint_Mary_of_the_Assumption_(San_Francisco) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Saint_Mary_of_the... Spomenik Memorials, Former Yugoslavia: https://www.spomenikdatabase.org/ https://www.spomenikdatabase.org/ None of those are ugly.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    My eyes, the goggles, they do nothing! While those are not hideous, they're hardly anything to write home about, much less call beautiful either. Compare them with a traditional budhist shrine, national monument, or church, and they're seen as the regression to ideology and "architect as god" arbitrariness that they are.

hulitu 3y ago

You should see Android or Win 10 for what it means ugly.

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
are we going to enumerate all the ugly things in the world now