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Your proposal is to castigate those who take a step in the right direction simply because they are out of step with the rest. This is, to put it gently, not how

Your proposal is to castigate those who take a step in the right direction simply because they are out of step with the rest. This is, to put it gently, not how we get a better world.

crazygringo 3y ago
No, it's that those who want to take a step in the right direction to coordinate to create a uniform policy. Because that is how to get a better world. People all doing their own thing in different directions is not how to improve things. It's when people are acting together to enforce in the same way. Are students to blame when they're receiving hugely mixed messages?
- andrewflnr 3y ago
  Yes. Right and wrong are invariant under incentives to do the wrong thing. That's why we call them right and wrong, rather than optimal or not. You will never get everyone moving in the right direction if you dogpile the first one to take a step. In practice, these changes almost always require someone to do it on their own before anyone else takes the idea seriously.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    Except that different people call different things right and wrong. There are no absolute rights and wrongs, people disagree deeply over ethics. Which is why you need to work on convincing people to come around to your idea. Then you can implement it through university policy, law, etc. We didn't come up with speed limits because a bunch of people decided to drive slower on their own and then the idea caught on. No, we came up with arguments as to why speed limits save lives, made it legislative policy with enforcement mechanisms, and then it works. Effective change is coordinated. People going rogue on their own gets you nowhere.
    - andrewflnr 3y ago
      Except no one actually disagrees that cheating is wrong, including the cheaters, so none of that "convincing others" stuff is relevant here. I don't know why you and so many other people in these threads want to pretend cheating is ethically complicated. It's not.

Your proposal is to castigate those who take a step in the right direction simply because they are out of step with the rest. This is, to put it gently, not how we get a better world.

crazygringo 3y ago

No, it's that those who want to take a step in the right direction to coordinate to create a uniform policy. Because that is how to get a better world. People all doing their own thing in different directions is not how to improve things. It's when people are acting together to enforce in the same way. Are students to blame when they're receiving hugely mixed messages?

andrewflnr 3y ago
Yes. Right and wrong are invariant under incentives to do the wrong thing. That's why we call them right and wrong, rather than optimal or not. You will never get everyone moving in the right direction if you dogpile the first one to take a step. In practice, these changes almost always require someone to do it on their own before anyone else takes the idea seriously.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Except that different people call different things right and wrong. There are no absolute rights and wrongs, people disagree deeply over ethics. Which is why you need to work on convincing people to come around to your idea. Then you can implement it through university policy, law, etc. We didn't come up with speed limits because a bunch of people decided to drive slower on their own and then the idea caught on. No, we came up with arguments as to why speed limits save lives, made it legislative policy with enforcement mechanisms, and then it works. Effective change is coordinated. People going rogue on their own gets you nowhere.
  - andrewflnr 3y ago
    Except no one actually disagrees that cheating is wrong, including the cheaters, so none of that "convincing others" stuff is relevant here. I don't know why you and so many other people in these threads want to pretend cheating is ethically complicated. It's not.