6 ms·

I'm not sure if the serif-icity is the jarring part, I think it's the different point size (or whatever that word is for the horizontal height lines that fonts

I'm not sure if the serif-icity is the jarring part, I think it's the different point size (or whatever that word is for the horizontal height lines that fonts live within). I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters, where a handwriting or printing typeface (or "Ransom" :) could vary the letter "a" so all the "a"'s don't look alike, the same as happens irl.

frostburg 3y ago
Many of the more complete font families feature stylistic alternatives for certain letters. Usually typesetting software has you manually pick them or select sets, but it could be done as you say.
seba_dos1 3y ago
> I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters Not sure what you're talking about; it did and there are many fonts that use it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Blahah 3y ago
> I think it's the different point size (or whatever that word is for the horizontal height lines that fonts live within). Agreed! The x-height [0] (among other things) differs jarringly between the serif and sans fonts used. 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-height#:~:text=In%20typography%2C%20the%20x%2Dheight,lowercase%20letters%20in%20a%20typeface https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-height#:~:text=In%20typogr....
- augustk 3y ago
  I wish you could specify the x-height of a font in CSS. If you mix serif and sans serif you want them to look like they have the same size. It would have been nice if the default browser fonts were selected to have the same x-height.
  - JusticeJuice 3y ago
    There's a lot of variable typefaces that let you set the x-height, which can be controlled via CSS.
  - glasshug 3y ago
    Soon! https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/1fae25fa283c708f7c71254b254a951cb3be3c63 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/1fae25fa283c708f7...
  - account42 3y ago
    > It would have been nice if the default browser fonts were selected Yes.
Jeff_Brown 3y ago
Yeah, if they were the same size I'm not sure I would even notice.
- gwern 3y ago
  You'd notice in the original screenshot/example linked: https://bouquetoftwelve.tumblr.com/post/186272155342/ommanyte-ommanyte-im-going-to-make-a-new https://bouquetoftwelve.tumblr.com/post/186272155342/ommanyt...
  - seba_dos1 3y ago
    That screenshot has the exact same problem.
    - gwern 3y ago
      No, it doesn't. Compare the heights of the 'ri' pairs, for example. In the Github repo, the difference is ginormous, the top of the 'r' is almost past the dot. In the original Tumblr mockup, the top doesn't even reach the same height as the dot. It's still too big to be subtle, but it's better.
mywittyname 3y ago
People really seem to hate "handwritten" fonts. Comic Sans is the mainstream example, but there are a lot of other ones. As others said, stylistic alternatives definitely exist in most font packages, especially commercial ones used with Adobe products. So the fact that they are not widely used outside of graphic design probably goes back to people generally hate fonts that look handwritten for anything besides wedding invitations.
- KerrAvon 3y ago
  I see a lot of the "why do people hate Comic Sans" articles on the web think it's just because it's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations, but this seems like post-hoc rationalization. It's the Comic Sans look specifically that people intensely dislike, not "handwritten" fonts in general. The original and better case against Comic Sans was that there were much better handwritten, comic-text-style fonts and that Comic Sans was a particularly bad instance of one. Just ask Dave Gibbons: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/aug/12/dave-gibbons-watchmen-interview https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/aug/12/dave-gibb... >"It's just a shame they couldn't have used just the original font, because it's a real mess. I think it's a particularly ugly letter form," he says. "The other thing that really bugs me that they've used an upper case I with bars on it: it looks completely wrong to the comic eye. And when you see store fronts done in it, it's horrible."
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    > it's just because it's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations It's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations /and the only available for anything 'fancy' on the Average Computer used by Average Joe/.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    stylistically, my personal taste is that Comic Sans is exactly the right font to use for serious warning signs like in a kitchen, such as "DON'T TOUCH, handle gets HOT" or something. Anything official looking I have a tendency to ignore as boilerplate, but comic sans seems like a personal friendly message directed at me if any of the objection is to the precise letter drawings, ok fine, give me a different one, but the overall concept, I'm Comic Sans all the way.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters, where a handwriting or printing typeface (or "Ransom" :) could vary the letter "a" so all the "a"'s don't look alike, the same as happens irl. Why would you want that? It seems like it would be harder to read for no benefit.
- true_religion 3y ago
  Why would you want it? For the same reason as a font like Times New Bastard. For fun. For creative depression. For no good reason at all.
- wishfish 3y ago
  For a handwriting font, it would be fun to have small variations on letters. Just to make it look like something actually handwritten.
- esquivalience 3y ago
  I believe it exists and here is a list of reasons for it: https://fonts.google.com/knowledge/introducing_type/introducing_alternate_glyphs https://fonts.google.com/knowledge/introducing_type/introduc...
  - acqq 3y ago
    Cool: https://www.fontshop.com/content/enable-contextual-alternates https://www.fontshop.com/content/enable-contextual-alternate...
- elevation 3y ago
  You might want it for emulating handwriting by choosing glyphs from a series of fonts so that tokens like "IEEE" or "error" aren't uncanny giveaways of the computer-rendering.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  >Why would you want that? call me OCD but when I look at stuff written in script my eyes check to see if all the a's are the same, all the b's are the same, all the... and then what I see is manufactured uniformity, a communique from The Machine. it wouldn't take much variation (say, three different a's) to make me feel a sense of relief that it's warmer and cuddlier
huhtenberg 3y ago
It would've been a neater prank if they'd actually chopped off serifs from the original letters and used those for the sans glyphes.
ryanjshaw 3y ago
It gives me flashbacks of bad OCR jobs and trying to copy sensible text out of the resultant messy PDF.

frostburg 3y ago

Many of the more complete font families feature stylistic alternatives for certain letters. Usually typesetting software has you manually pick them or select sets, but it could be done as you say.

seba_dos1 3y ago

> I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters Not sure what you're talking about; it did and there are many fonts that use it.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Blahah 3y ago

> I think it's the different point size (or whatever that word is for the horizontal height lines that fonts live within). Agreed! The x-height [0] (among other things) differs jarringly between the serif and sans fonts used. 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-height#:~:text=In%20typography%2C%20the%20x%2Dheight,lowercase%20letters%20in%20a%20typeface https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-height#:~:text=In%20typogr....

augustk 3y ago
I wish you could specify the x-height of a font in CSS. If you mix serif and sans serif you want them to look like they have the same size. It would have been nice if the default browser fonts were selected to have the same x-height.
- JusticeJuice 3y ago
  There's a lot of variable typefaces that let you set the x-height, which can be controlled via CSS.
- glasshug 3y ago
  Soon! https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/1fae25fa283c708f7c71254b254a951cb3be3c63 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/1fae25fa283c708f7...
- account42 3y ago
  > It would have been nice if the default browser fonts were selected Yes.

Jeff_Brown 3y ago

Yeah, if they were the same size I'm not sure I would even notice.

gwern 3y ago
You'd notice in the original screenshot/example linked: https://bouquetoftwelve.tumblr.com/post/186272155342/ommanyte-ommanyte-im-going-to-make-a-new https://bouquetoftwelve.tumblr.com/post/186272155342/ommanyt...
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  That screenshot has the exact same problem.
  - gwern 3y ago
    No, it doesn't. Compare the heights of the 'ri' pairs, for example. In the Github repo, the difference is ginormous, the top of the 'r' is almost past the dot. In the original Tumblr mockup, the top doesn't even reach the same height as the dot. It's still too big to be subtle, but it's better.

mywittyname 3y ago

People really seem to hate "handwritten" fonts. Comic Sans is the mainstream example, but there are a lot of other ones. As others said, stylistic alternatives definitely exist in most font packages, especially commercial ones used with Adobe products. So the fact that they are not widely used outside of graphic design probably goes back to people generally hate fonts that look handwritten for anything besides wedding invitations.

KerrAvon 3y ago
I see a lot of the "why do people hate Comic Sans" articles on the web think it's just because it's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations, but this seems like post-hoc rationalization. It's the Comic Sans look specifically that people intensely dislike, not "handwritten" fonts in general. The original and better case against Comic Sans was that there were much better handwritten, comic-text-style fonts and that Comic Sans was a particularly bad instance of one. Just ask Dave Gibbons: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/aug/12/dave-gibbons-watchmen-interview https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/aug/12/dave-gibb... >"It's just a shame they couldn't have used just the original font, because it's a real mess. I think it's a particularly ugly letter form," he says. "The other thing that really bugs me that they've used an upper case I with bars on it: it looks completely wrong to the comic eye. And when you see store fronts done in it, it's horrible."
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  > it's just because it's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations It's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations /and the only available for anything 'fancy' on the Average Computer used by Average Joe/.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  stylistically, my personal taste is that Comic Sans is exactly the right font to use for serious warning signs like in a kitchen, such as "DON'T TOUCH, handle gets HOT" or something. Anything official looking I have a tendency to ignore as boilerplate, but comic sans seems like a personal friendly message directed at me if any of the objection is to the precise letter drawings, ok fine, give me a different one, but the overall concept, I'm Comic Sans all the way.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago

> I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters, where a handwriting or printing typeface (or "Ransom" :) could vary the letter "a" so all the "a"'s don't look alike, the same as happens irl. Why would you want that? It seems like it would be harder to read for no benefit.

true_religion 3y ago
Why would you want it? For the same reason as a font like Times New Bastard. For fun. For creative depression. For no good reason at all.
wishfish 3y ago
For a handwriting font, it would be fun to have small variations on letters. Just to make it look like something actually handwritten.
esquivalience 3y ago
I believe it exists and here is a list of reasons for it: https://fonts.google.com/knowledge/introducing_type/introducing_alternate_glyphs https://fonts.google.com/knowledge/introducing_type/introduc...
- acqq 3y ago
  Cool: https://www.fontshop.com/content/enable-contextual-alternates https://www.fontshop.com/content/enable-contextual-alternate...
elevation 3y ago
You might want it for emulating handwriting by choosing glyphs from a series of fonts so that tokens like "IEEE" or "error" aren't uncanny giveaways of the computer-rendering.
fsckboy 3y ago
>Why would you want that? call me OCD but when I look at stuff written in script my eyes check to see if all the a's are the same, all the b's are the same, all the... and then what I see is manufactured uniformity, a communique from The Machine. it wouldn't take much variation (say, three different a's) to make me feel a sense of relief that it's warmer and cuddlier

huhtenberg 3y ago

It would've been a neater prank if they'd actually chopped off serifs from the original letters and used those for the sans glyphes.

ryanjshaw 3y ago

It gives me flashbacks of bad OCR jobs and trying to copy sensible text out of the resultant messy PDF.