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> So orcas are the "dumb" ones because some eat fish? that's a pretty twisted and incorrect reading of what i said, they don't have human level of intelligence

> So orcas are the "dumb" ones because some eat fish? that's a pretty twisted and incorrect reading of what i said, they don't have human level of intelligence because they all don't do anything else singificant their whole entire lives but hunt fish, not because they eat fish.

bmitc 3y ago
You didn't respond to my other questions. What are they supposed to do and eat, then? What about what you said makes them unintelligent? Edit: Replying to the reply I received here in an edit, since the comment is now dead. I apologize for being confused, because I indeed was. I wasn't trying to do anything other than understand you're admittedly confusing argument, which is why I asked for an elaboration. > Can you please point me to cultural, scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements of orcas that are typically associated with human-level intellect? Now we're getting somewhere interesting. :) None of those things, aside from maybe culture have anything to do with intelligence. Orcas certainly do have culture and do more than just eat. They stay with their families their entire lives, intelligently breading with other pods (i.e., not their relatives), have play, vocalization and by all appearances language, and even recreation, such as vising massaging pebbles or visiting their favorite areas. The have culture, such as play activities and hunting techniques, that are passed done from generation to generation and are activity taught to fellow pod members. There is even a famous example of orcas teaching and training humans to hunt whales in a mutually beneficial way that allowed the orcas to eat their favorite parts: the tongue. An orca's brain is fascinating. It is much larger than a humans. Of course, their bodies are much larger and thus need more processing power to handle the larger system, but the brain size is certainly a component to their intelligence. What's more interesting is that their brain exhibits much higher density and complex folding than our brain does. Folds in brains increase surface area and are thought to correlate strongly with more processing power and higher intelligence. We are smoothed brain compared to them. Another fascinating thing about their brain is that the part of the brain associated with emotional intelligence in much larger than humans and other primates relative to the rest of the brain. So it stands to reason by both brain structure and their behavior that orcas are much more emotionally intelligent than humans. As a separate fact, orcas are one of only three mammals, the other being pilot whales and humans, that undergo menopause, an evolutionary adaptation that helps allow their matriarchical society to maintain its social structure and health. Science is absolutely clear on this fact: orca brains have every indication of processing power that competes very seriously with human brains and in some ways out competes it. And with every bit of new research that comes out, we find out more that points in the positive direction of them being even more intelligent than we thought. Compared to ancient humans prior to agriculture and technology, their hunting techniques absolutely equal human techniques. It's possible that they are even more coordinated than humans. Regarding the rest of the stuff you mentioned such as scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements, none of these things matter for or hardly even relate to intelligence. For one, we have no understanding nor comprehension of their internal mental models and thus cannot comment on their philosophy. For the rest, I would ask you to consider their environment. They live in the ocean and are forced to live near the surface due to being air-breathing mammals. Not even considering the fact that they lack hands and opposable thumbs, their environment makes technological progress impossible. There is no way to develop writing or printing technology, agriculture, architecture, or anything else due to their aquatic environment. As a thought experiment, take humans and give them the magically ability to live in the ocean permanently with the typical human dexterity, hands, and opposable thumbs. Writing, printing, recording of any kind would be impossible for ancient humans to obtain, thus preventing all technological development. Lastly, one should consider what intelligence actually is. Orcas live their lives by eating responsibly and healthily, stay with their families, play, communicate, and live all without waging war. We humans live our lives slaved to our technology and socioeconomic systems with vast amounts of self-induced mental and physical health problems while trying to obtain some misplaced notion of permanence in this universe through AI or space travel, all while completely destroying the environment for ourselves and every other species. Humans are also some of the most if not the most violent species to ever exist. Which is more intelligent?
- twelve40 3y ago
  > What are they supposed to eat I answered that unlike what you are trying to accuse me of, I think there is nothing wrong with eating fish, the problem is inability to do anything else of significance but eat fish, talking about the dietary preferences is a diversion, so can we put that to rest already? > What about what you said makes them unintelligent? Can you please point me to cultural, scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements of orcas that are typically associated with human-level intellect?
  - flangola7 3y ago
    Can you just engage in good faith please? Comments like this degrade the overall community and conversation.
    - pie420 3y ago
      Don't engage with trolls.
  - lacrosse_tannin 3y ago
    Not wrecking the planet
  - bmitc 3y ago
    I edited my comment as a reply to this one. This reply of yours was flagged and dead earlier.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  > Orcas live their lives by eating responsibly and healthily, stay with their families, play, communicate, and live all without waging war. We humans live our lives slaved to our technology and socioeconomic systems with vast amounts of self-induced mental and physical health problems while trying to obtain some misplaced notion of permanence in this universe through AI or space travel, all while completely destroying the environment for ourselves and every other species. Humans are also some of the most if not the most violent species to ever exist. Which is more intelligent? All moot if we are in The Matrix already? If not, The Matrix is the end game, anyway? I wouldn't mind much as long as chicken tastes better than fish.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ok_dad 3y ago
I think there are a lot of humans who do nothing significant with their lives. Doesn’t mean they aren’t smart or capable.
- Retric 3y ago
  I would extend that and say all humans don’t do anything significant with their lives. It seems rather likely that humanity as a whole has had zero impact on an overwhelming majority of all life that exists or will exist, intelligent or otherwise. Granted nobody particularly cares about the absolute scale but if you’re complaining about significance it’s obviously just personal bias.
  - ok_dad 3y ago
    Alternately, there is only life on this planet, and were going to be responsible for killing it all. You can’t be sure either way, so we must be way way more careful, in case this is it for the universe.
giantrobot 3y ago
Orcas tried metallurgy but they can't keep their forges lit. They're also not great airline pilots. So they've decided for now to stick with fishing.
hluska 3y ago
Some humans get to spend their lives hunting fish. The rest of us go to work because we have bills to pay. You have a very weak argument.
tanseydavid 3y ago
>> they all don't do anything else singificant their whole entire lives but hunt fish But the article is about them organizing a posse to sink a sea-worthy boat!!! Can you and your friends do that? Without the aid of tools?
- 93po 3y ago
  if the boat weighed as much as me, probably

bmitc 3y ago

You didn't respond to my other questions. What are they supposed to do and eat, then? What about what you said makes them unintelligent? Edit: Replying to the reply I received here in an edit, since the comment is now dead. I apologize for being confused, because I indeed was. I wasn't trying to do anything other than understand you're admittedly confusing argument, which is why I asked for an elaboration. > Can you please point me to cultural, scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements of orcas that are typically associated with human-level intellect? Now we're getting somewhere interesting. :) None of those things, aside from maybe culture have anything to do with intelligence. Orcas certainly do have culture and do more than just eat. They stay with their families their entire lives, intelligently breading with other pods (i.e., not their relatives), have play, vocalization and by all appearances language, and even recreation, such as vising massaging pebbles or visiting their favorite areas. The have culture, such as play activities and hunting techniques, that are passed done from generation to generation and are activity taught to fellow pod members. There is even a famous example of orcas teaching and training humans to hunt whales in a mutually beneficial way that allowed the orcas to eat their favorite parts: the tongue. An orca's brain is fascinating. It is much larger than a humans. Of course, their bodies are much larger and thus need more processing power to handle the larger system, but the brain size is certainly a component to their intelligence. What's more interesting is that their brain exhibits much higher density and complex folding than our brain does. Folds in brains increase surface area and are thought to correlate strongly with more processing power and higher intelligence. We are smoothed brain compared to them. Another fascinating thing about their brain is that the part of the brain associated with emotional intelligence in much larger than humans and other primates relative to the rest of the brain. So it stands to reason by both brain structure and their behavior that orcas are much more emotionally intelligent than humans. As a separate fact, orcas are one of only three mammals, the other being pilot whales and humans, that undergo menopause, an evolutionary adaptation that helps allow their matriarchical society to maintain its social structure and health. Science is absolutely clear on this fact: orca brains have every indication of processing power that competes very seriously with human brains and in some ways out competes it. And with every bit of new research that comes out, we find out more that points in the positive direction of them being even more intelligent than we thought. Compared to ancient humans prior to agriculture and technology, their hunting techniques absolutely equal human techniques. It's possible that they are even more coordinated than humans. Regarding the rest of the stuff you mentioned such as scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements, none of these things matter for or hardly even relate to intelligence. For one, we have no understanding nor comprehension of their internal mental models and thus cannot comment on their philosophy. For the rest, I would ask you to consider their environment. They live in the ocean and are forced to live near the surface due to being air-breathing mammals. Not even considering the fact that they lack hands and opposable thumbs, their environment makes technological progress impossible. There is no way to develop writing or printing technology, agriculture, architecture, or anything else due to their aquatic environment. As a thought experiment, take humans and give them the magically ability to live in the ocean permanently with the typical human dexterity, hands, and opposable thumbs. Writing, printing, recording of any kind would be impossible for ancient humans to obtain, thus preventing all technological development. Lastly, one should consider what intelligence actually is. Orcas live their lives by eating responsibly and healthily, stay with their families, play, communicate, and live all without waging war. We humans live our lives slaved to our technology and socioeconomic systems with vast amounts of self-induced mental and physical health problems while trying to obtain some misplaced notion of permanence in this universe through AI or space travel, all while completely destroying the environment for ourselves and every other species. Humans are also some of the most if not the most violent species to ever exist. Which is more intelligent?

twelve40 3y ago
> What are they supposed to eat I answered that unlike what you are trying to accuse me of, I think there is nothing wrong with eating fish, the problem is inability to do anything else of significance but eat fish, talking about the dietary preferences is a diversion, so can we put that to rest already? > What about what you said makes them unintelligent? Can you please point me to cultural, scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements of orcas that are typically associated with human-level intellect?
- flangola7 3y ago
  Can you just engage in good faith please? Comments like this degrade the overall community and conversation.
  - pie420 3y ago
    Don't engage with trolls.
- lacrosse_tannin 3y ago
  Not wrecking the planet
- bmitc 3y ago
  I edited my comment as a reply to this one. This reply of yours was flagged and dead earlier.
ignoramous 3y ago
> Orcas live their lives by eating responsibly and healthily, stay with their families, play, communicate, and live all without waging war. We humans live our lives slaved to our technology and socioeconomic systems with vast amounts of self-induced mental and physical health problems while trying to obtain some misplaced notion of permanence in this universe through AI or space travel, all while completely destroying the environment for ourselves and every other species. Humans are also some of the most if not the most violent species to ever exist. Which is more intelligent? All moot if we are in The Matrix already? If not, The Matrix is the end game, anyway? I wouldn't mind much as long as chicken tastes better than fish.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ok_dad 3y ago

I think there are a lot of humans who do nothing significant with their lives. Doesn’t mean they aren’t smart or capable.

Retric 3y ago
I would extend that and say all humans don’t do anything significant with their lives. It seems rather likely that humanity as a whole has had zero impact on an overwhelming majority of all life that exists or will exist, intelligent or otherwise. Granted nobody particularly cares about the absolute scale but if you’re complaining about significance it’s obviously just personal bias.
- ok_dad 3y ago
  Alternately, there is only life on this planet, and were going to be responsible for killing it all. You can’t be sure either way, so we must be way way more careful, in case this is it for the universe.

giantrobot 3y ago

Orcas tried metallurgy but they can't keep their forges lit. They're also not great airline pilots. So they've decided for now to stick with fishing.

hluska 3y ago

Some humans get to spend their lives hunting fish. The rest of us go to work because we have bills to pay. You have a very weak argument.

tanseydavid 3y ago

>> they all don't do anything else singificant their whole entire lives but hunt fish But the article is about them organizing a posse to sink a sea-worthy boat!!! Can you and your friends do that? Without the aid of tools?

93po 3y ago
if the boat weighed as much as me, probably