3 ms·

I've seen this before, somewhat related, the archaeological evidence for the existence of pants is much more recent than this flute. Meaning that there's a high

I've seen this before, somewhat related, the archaeological evidence for the existence of pants is much more recent than this flute. Meaning that there's a high possibility that for many tens of thousands of years humans had flutes and hollow bone musical instruments but no pants.

bookofjoe 3y ago
This is the most interesting thing I've read so far today — and I've read a LOT of interesting stuff already!
codyb 3y ago
That's very funny. But is it possible whatever rudimentary coverings early humans had would just decay unlike a flute? Or would we still expect to see... fibers or something? For instance, if early humans used furs, would those... stay intact through the ages? And be distinguishable from other animal skins that were laying around after a hunt?
- bookofjoe 3y ago
  https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/otzi-the-iceman/#:~:text=The%20Iceman%20mummy%2C%20nicknamed%20%C3%96tzi,3%2C200%20m%20above%20sea%20level https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/otzi-the-iceman/#:~....
eesmith 3y ago
Could have been wearing a skirt, sarong, loin cloth, tunics and more. Some people wear a koteka (penis gourd). The Romans considered pants barbarous; Julius Caeser almost certainly invaded Britain without pants.
- bookofjoe 3y ago
  Source?
  - eesmith 3y ago
    That Julius Caesar definitely never wore pants? I have no source. That Romans at the time did not, for the most part, wear pants? It's a DDG search away: "Even when foreign garments – such as full-length trousers – proved more practical than standard issue, soldiers and commanders who used them were viewed with disdain and alarm by their more conservative compatriots, for undermining Rome's military virtus by "going native". ... Trousers – considered barbarous garments worn by Germans and Persians – achieved only limited popularity in the latter days of the empire, and were regarded by conservatives as a sign of cultural decay." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_in_ancient_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_in_ancient_Rome "But in Imperial Rome, obviously, things were a little different—no man of honor would think of wearing what was considered the garb of a savage barbarian." https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/trousers-pants-roman-history-banned-trajan https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/trousers-pants-roman-h... "For the Romans, to encircle the legs and thighs with fasciae, or bands, was understood, in the time of Pompey and Horace, to be a proof of ill health and effeminacy.[2] Roman men typically wore tunics, which were one-piece outfits terminating at or above the knee." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braccae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braccae "Leg coverings were seen as crude items, something that was worn by the barbarians who lived beyond the borders of Roman civilization or as the leg protection of the very poor or old. Long pants, like long sleeves were seen as effeminate. ... In Caesar's day braccae were considered effeminate and barbarian-wear — something to avoided by civilized Roman men." - https://romanobritain.org/8-military/mil_soldiers_braccae_.php https://romanobritain.org/8-military/mil_soldiers_braccae_.p... Digging more, I found this from "Roman Influences on the Victory Reliefs of Shapur I of Persia", Marjorie C. Mackintosh, California Studies in Classical Antiquity , 1973, Vol. 6 (1973), pp. 181-203, https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25010653.pdf https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25010653.pdf > On the Column of Marcus Aurelius, the emperor addresses his men who, like himself, are clad in tunica, sagum and bracae (Hamberg [supra n. 22] 143, pl. 26, scene LXXXIII). See also Brilliant, Severus, 155, n. 23. That the Romans on the other reliefs do not wear the same may have been due to an oversight or to the fact that the Romans considered trousers as a basically barbarian garment (E. Sander, Die Kleidung des romischen Soldaten," Historia 12 [1963] 152) and may have preferred not to be depicted thus in a "barbarian" monument. Since the Romans probably helped in the design of the monuments, their preference might have had some force. Roman monuments show emperors and officers in field situations both with and without bracae. So, maybe Julius Caesar did sometimes wear pants? You'll need to ask a Romanologist. Still, there's going to be plenty of Roman flute players who never wore pants.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  It might all be a terrible misunderstanding. What if that koteka was actually a flute holder?
akiselev 3y ago
The archaeological evidence for pants might not have survived but we're pretty certain that humans started wearing clothing 80,000-230,000 years ago because that's when body lice, adapted to living in clothing, genetically diverged from head lice [1]. On top of that the oldest surviving sewing needle is roughly 45,000 years old [2] so complex clothing was very likely contemporaneous or far older than the flute. [1] https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/28/1/29/984822 https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/28/1/29/984822 [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S004724841830085X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472...

bookofjoe 3y ago

This is the most interesting thing I've read so far today — and I've read a LOT of interesting stuff already!

codyb 3y ago

That's very funny. But is it possible whatever rudimentary coverings early humans had would just decay unlike a flute? Or would we still expect to see... fibers or something? For instance, if early humans used furs, would those... stay intact through the ages? And be distinguishable from other animal skins that were laying around after a hunt?

bookofjoe 3y ago
https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/otzi-the-iceman/#:~:text=The%20Iceman%20mummy%2C%20nicknamed%20%C3%96tzi,3%2C200%20m%20above%20sea%20level https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/otzi-the-iceman/#:~....

eesmith 3y ago

Could have been wearing a skirt, sarong, loin cloth, tunics and more. Some people wear a koteka (penis gourd). The Romans considered pants barbarous; Julius Caeser almost certainly invaded Britain without pants.

bookofjoe 3y ago
Source?
- eesmith 3y ago
  That Julius Caesar definitely never wore pants? I have no source. That Romans at the time did not, for the most part, wear pants? It's a DDG search away: "Even when foreign garments – such as full-length trousers – proved more practical than standard issue, soldiers and commanders who used them were viewed with disdain and alarm by their more conservative compatriots, for undermining Rome's military virtus by "going native". ... Trousers – considered barbarous garments worn by Germans and Persians – achieved only limited popularity in the latter days of the empire, and were regarded by conservatives as a sign of cultural decay." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_in_ancient_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_in_ancient_Rome "But in Imperial Rome, obviously, things were a little different—no man of honor would think of wearing what was considered the garb of a savage barbarian." https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/trousers-pants-roman-history-banned-trajan https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/trousers-pants-roman-h... "For the Romans, to encircle the legs and thighs with fasciae, or bands, was understood, in the time of Pompey and Horace, to be a proof of ill health and effeminacy.[2] Roman men typically wore tunics, which were one-piece outfits terminating at or above the knee." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braccae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braccae "Leg coverings were seen as crude items, something that was worn by the barbarians who lived beyond the borders of Roman civilization or as the leg protection of the very poor or old. Long pants, like long sleeves were seen as effeminate. ... In Caesar's day braccae were considered effeminate and barbarian-wear — something to avoided by civilized Roman men." - https://romanobritain.org/8-military/mil_soldiers_braccae_.php https://romanobritain.org/8-military/mil_soldiers_braccae_.p... Digging more, I found this from "Roman Influences on the Victory Reliefs of Shapur I of Persia", Marjorie C. Mackintosh, California Studies in Classical Antiquity , 1973, Vol. 6 (1973), pp. 181-203, https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25010653.pdf https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25010653.pdf > On the Column of Marcus Aurelius, the emperor addresses his men who, like himself, are clad in tunica, sagum and bracae (Hamberg [supra n. 22] 143, pl. 26, scene LXXXIII). See also Brilliant, Severus, 155, n. 23. That the Romans on the other reliefs do not wear the same may have been due to an oversight or to the fact that the Romans considered trousers as a basically barbarian garment (E. Sander, Die Kleidung des romischen Soldaten," Historia 12 [1963] 152) and may have preferred not to be depicted thus in a "barbarian" monument. Since the Romans probably helped in the design of the monuments, their preference might have had some force. Roman monuments show emperors and officers in field situations both with and without bracae. So, maybe Julius Caesar did sometimes wear pants? You'll need to ask a Romanologist. Still, there's going to be plenty of Roman flute players who never wore pants.
lostlogin 3y ago
It might all be a terrible misunderstanding. What if that koteka was actually a flute holder?

akiselev 3y ago

The archaeological evidence for pants might not have survived but we're pretty certain that humans started wearing clothing 80,000-230,000 years ago because that's when body lice, adapted to living in clothing, genetically diverged from head lice [1]. On top of that the oldest surviving sewing needle is roughly 45,000 years old [2] so complex clothing was very likely contemporaneous or far older than the flute. [1] https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/28/1/29/984822 https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/28/1/29/984822 [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S004724841830085X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472...