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Calling "VM-like" is not helpful because containers have also been called that, it also doesn't explain anything. Is it running a separate kernal image? Does it

Calling "VM-like" is not helpful because containers have also been called that, it also doesn't explain anything. Is it running a separate kernal image? Does it do hypercalls to the host kernel? If not then I wouldn't call it VM-like. The low-level details and fiddly knobs matter, not how it looks like from userspace when all is done. Based on the jail(8) manpage I get the impression that jails are more like all the namespace and cgroup things rolled into a single entity. Which I guess makes it more difficult to use them incorrectly. But it also prevents other uses such as the one that jmillikin has in mind.

0x457 3y ago
It's called VM-like because: - Often boots user land like a VM (i.e. PID 1 is not the process you want to run, but whatever metal or VM freebsd runs as PID 1) - Normally has its own network stack (VIMAGE) - Normally runs a bunch of background services like a regular VM or on-metal would. - Normally has the entire copy of user-land - I've never seen short-lived jails either - you make a base dataset, clone it, but after that, you just run `freebsd-update` like you would in VM. The majority of jail users treat them like lightweight VMs, only difference between VM and Jail from consumer standpoint: shared kernel, access to a subset of host's FS (sharing host FS to VMs in freebsd is not as easy as it is on linux). To be clear, it's possible to use Jails like Docker, there is just no good tooling to do it. People would yell that whatever we have for jails is all we need with foam from their mouths every time you mention it.
- the8472 3y ago
  That's just saying how people tend to use it, not what the technology does. Namespaces/Cgroups can be used both ways, to isolate a single process (or even partially-isolate individual threads) or entire userland stacks. The question that was asked what the technology can do, not how it's being used. What are the primitives, the atoms its made of.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    > That's just saying how people tend to use it People tend to use words that describe how they use things to describe what they are.
    - righttoolforjob 3y ago
      Well, take a car as an example. The question is not what you use a car for, but rather how the car is built.
      - 0x457 3y ago
        Car is a carriage-like mode of transportation. The question was "Calling "VM-like" is not helpful because containers have also been called that, it also doesn't explain anything." I've provided examples why "VM-like" is used to describe jails.
  - 0x457 3y ago
    I think you need to look into usage of "-like" suffix.

0x457 3y ago

It's called VM-like because: - Often boots user land like a VM (i.e. PID 1 is not the process you want to run, but whatever metal or VM freebsd runs as PID 1) - Normally has its own network stack (VIMAGE) - Normally runs a bunch of background services like a regular VM or on-metal would. - Normally has the entire copy of user-land - I've never seen short-lived jails either - you make a base dataset, clone it, but after that, you just run `freebsd-update` like you would in VM. The majority of jail users treat them like lightweight VMs, only difference between VM and Jail from consumer standpoint: shared kernel, access to a subset of host's FS (sharing host FS to VMs in freebsd is not as easy as it is on linux). To be clear, it's possible to use Jails like Docker, there is just no good tooling to do it. People would yell that whatever we have for jails is all we need with foam from their mouths every time you mention it.

the8472 3y ago
That's just saying how people tend to use it, not what the technology does. Namespaces/Cgroups can be used both ways, to isolate a single process (or even partially-isolate individual threads) or entire userland stacks. The question that was asked what the technology can do, not how it's being used. What are the primitives, the atoms its made of.
- fragmede 3y ago
  > That's just saying how people tend to use it People tend to use words that describe how they use things to describe what they are.
  - righttoolforjob 3y ago
    Well, take a car as an example. The question is not what you use a car for, but rather how the car is built.
    - 0x457 3y ago
      Car is a carriage-like mode of transportation. The question was "Calling "VM-like" is not helpful because containers have also been called that, it also doesn't explain anything." I've provided examples why "VM-like" is used to describe jails.
- 0x457 3y ago
  I think you need to look into usage of "-like" suffix.