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Can you be more specific about the instances of what you're talking about when you say "strong central power forcibly enforcing its dictates on unwilling popula

Can you be more specific about the instances of what you're talking about when you say "strong central power forcibly enforcing its dictates on unwilling populations?"

h2odragon 3y ago
Lockdowns and vaccine mandates fit that bill, in my view
- kelnos 3y ago
  It's weird how many people have suddenly come out against vaccine mandates, when a bunch of vaccinations have been mandatory for school attendance in most US school districts since before most (all?) of us were born.
  - sigzero 3y ago
    I think there were always a lot of people against this "vaccine" mandate. The Government handled it entirely wrong from the start.
    - krapp 3y ago
      People mostly turned against this vaccine mandate because of the degree to which one political party normalized conspiratorial thinking among its base and made opposing it a part of their identity. The left complained about policy but still accepted that policy as necessary, while the right screamed about adrenochrome harvesting and the new world order. One side thought Fauci fumbled the messaging about mask effectiveness, but again, didn't oppose the vaccines or masking or quarantines, whereas the other side claimed Fauci and Biden cooked up COVID in a lab, and still spawn green accounts on HN calling for both to be hanged. Let's not pretend the opposition to the vaccine mandates in the US was entirely rational. It was mostly a circus of derangement and paranoid delusion. The only question is whether enough time will pass until the next pandemic for culture to have moved on, or if we can just expect half the country to oppose vaccinations on general principle from now on.
      - dmonitor 3y ago
        I don’t like this strawman argument where anyone that is skeptical about the safety of a barely tested vaccine is put in the same category as people who think the vaccine is made of nanomachines controlled by the La Li Lu Le Lo.
        krapp 3y ago
        The COVID vaccines went through the same testing and clinical trials as all other vaccines. The accelerated timeline was possible due to advances in research and preparation being done ahead of time. If you believe otherwise, it's because you listened to the cranks who were controlling the "skeptic" narrative and ignored the evidence to the contrary, because that's where the meme of the vaccines being untested and rushed came from.
        chronofar 3y ago
        “If you don’t believe what I believe, you listened to cranks” isn’t a terribly compelling argument. They went through the same process yes. That does not make taking a brand new COVID vaccine in the height of a hyper-politicized pandemic the same as taking the for example MMR vaccine that has been used for decades. There are all kinds of reasons to be skeptical of the former more than the latter that need not be driven by crankery, and you’re only undermining your presumed desire to appear on the side of science by suggesting otherwise.
        krapp 3y ago
        > “If you don’t believe what I believe, you listened to cranks” isn’t a terribly compelling argument. It's a good thing that isn't the argument I made, then. >That does not make taking a brand new COVID vaccine in the height of a hyper-politicized pandemic the same as taking the for example MMR vaccine that has been used for decades. Yes, it kind of does. The vaccine was tested. It's safe. No, that doesn't mean there isn't risk, there is always risk, but risk doesn't mean it could be poison for all anyone knows. There was little reason to be skeptical about it (or any more skeptical than of other vaccines, which is to say not very skeptical) besides giving in to the FUD being spread by the anti-vax crowd telling people it would make them infertile or drop dead of a heart attack after a few days.

Can you be more specific about the instances of what you're talking about when you say "strong central power forcibly enforcing its dictates on unwilling populations?"

h2odragon 3y ago

Lockdowns and vaccine mandates fit that bill, in my view

kelnos 3y ago
It's weird how many people have suddenly come out against vaccine mandates, when a bunch of vaccinations have been mandatory for school attendance in most US school districts since before most (all?) of us were born.
- sigzero 3y ago
  I think there were always a lot of people against this "vaccine" mandate. The Government handled it entirely wrong from the start.
  - krapp 3y ago
    People mostly turned against this vaccine mandate because of the degree to which one political party normalized conspiratorial thinking among its base and made opposing it a part of their identity. The left complained about policy but still accepted that policy as necessary, while the right screamed about adrenochrome harvesting and the new world order. One side thought Fauci fumbled the messaging about mask effectiveness, but again, didn't oppose the vaccines or masking or quarantines, whereas the other side claimed Fauci and Biden cooked up COVID in a lab, and still spawn green accounts on HN calling for both to be hanged. Let's not pretend the opposition to the vaccine mandates in the US was entirely rational. It was mostly a circus of derangement and paranoid delusion. The only question is whether enough time will pass until the next pandemic for culture to have moved on, or if we can just expect half the country to oppose vaccinations on general principle from now on.
    - dmonitor 3y ago
      I don’t like this strawman argument where anyone that is skeptical about the safety of a barely tested vaccine is put in the same category as people who think the vaccine is made of nanomachines controlled by the La Li Lu Le Lo.
      - krapp 3y ago
        The COVID vaccines went through the same testing and clinical trials as all other vaccines. The accelerated timeline was possible due to advances in research and preparation being done ahead of time. If you believe otherwise, it's because you listened to the cranks who were controlling the "skeptic" narrative and ignored the evidence to the contrary, because that's where the meme of the vaccines being untested and rushed came from.
        chronofar 3y ago
        “If you don’t believe what I believe, you listened to cranks” isn’t a terribly compelling argument. They went through the same process yes. That does not make taking a brand new COVID vaccine in the height of a hyper-politicized pandemic the same as taking the for example MMR vaccine that has been used for decades. There are all kinds of reasons to be skeptical of the former more than the latter that need not be driven by crankery, and you’re only undermining your presumed desire to appear on the side of science by suggesting otherwise.
        krapp 3y ago
        > “If you don’t believe what I believe, you listened to cranks” isn’t a terribly compelling argument. It's a good thing that isn't the argument I made, then. >That does not make taking a brand new COVID vaccine in the height of a hyper-politicized pandemic the same as taking the for example MMR vaccine that has been used for decades. Yes, it kind of does. The vaccine was tested. It's safe. No, that doesn't mean there isn't risk, there is always risk, but risk doesn't mean it could be poison for all anyone knows. There was little reason to be skeptical about it (or any more skeptical than of other vaccines, which is to say not very skeptical) besides giving in to the FUD being spread by the anti-vax crowd telling people it would make them infertile or drop dead of a heart attack after a few days.