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Virtually everything you write is a lie that present-day Russian government media bombards its population with in a desperate attempt to justify why their milit

Virtually everything you write is a lie that present-day Russian government media bombards its population with in a desperate attempt to justify why their military leaves behind a trail of childrens' bodies, poured over with gasoline and lit aflame to hide the horrendous crimes in a mirror image of how Nazi Germany behaved in Ukraine. You are not offering some nuanced alternative view, but reurgitating known proven lies. Here is one example: >> If NATO didn't insist on expanding after the fall of the Soviet Union (as promised by James Baker and others) Prominent members of Soviet leadership have explicitly denied that such subject ever came up. Nor did Russian representatives ever mention anything like it when most of Eastern Europe joined NATO in late 1990s and early 2000s. This conspiracy theory emerged in late 2000s, when Russia took a turn towards revanchism and declared a war on the western world at Munich security conference. When the conspiracy theory first appeared, it prompted interviews with people such as the Soviet foreign minister Shevardnadze, who denied that the subject of Eastern Europe in NATO ever came up. Spiegel asked it from multiple angles, but all they got was a solid "No": >> SPIEGEL ONLINE: In February 1990, Germany's foreign minister at the time, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, assured you that "NATO will not expand to the east," and that states like Poland and Hungary could never be part of the military alliance. Because the conversion had revolved mainly around East Germany, Genscher even became more explicit, saying that: "As far as the non-expansion of NATO is concerned, this also applies in general." According to reports, you replied that you believed everything he said. So why didn't you get this commitment from NATO on paper? >> Shevardnadze: Times have changed. At the time we couldn't believe that the Warsaw Pact could be dissolved. It was beyond our realm of comprehension. None of the participating countries had doubts about the Warsaw Pact. And the three Baltic states, which are now part of NATO, were still part of the Soviet Union then. Eventually, we agreed that a united Germany could be part of NATO under certain conditions. For example, a national army limited to 370,000 members and Germany waives the right to nuclear weapons. An expansion of NATO beyond Germany's borders was out of the question. >> SPIEGEL ONLINE: At the end of March 1990, Genscher and the then US Secretary of State James Baker, talked about the fact that there was interest among "central European states" about getting into NATO. You knew nothing of this? >> Shevardnadze: This is the first I've heard of it. >> SPIEGEL ONLINE: Did you have a conversation with your colleagues in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary about a possible eastward expansion of NATO in the spring of 1990? >> Shevardnadze: No, that was never discussed in my presence. >> SPIEGEL ONLINE: The German documents give the impression that Moscow counted on the dissolution of both the Warsaw Pact and NATO. Did you really think that would happen? >> Shevardnadze: That may have been discussed after I resigned from the ministry of foreign affairs in December 1990. However during my time in office it was not. >> SPIEGEL ONLINE: Was the eastward expansion of NATO ever discussed in the inner circles of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1990? >> Shevardnadze: The question never came up. >> SPIEGEL ONLINE: Nevertheless, the eastward expansion happened a few years later. Did you feel, at the time, that the German diplomats deceived you? >> Shevardnadze: No. When I was the minister of foreign affairs in the Soviet Union, NATO's expansion beyond the German borders never came up for negotiation. To this day I don't see anything terrible in NATO's expansion. >> SPIEGEL ONLINE: At the conference in Ottawa on German unity in February 1990, you had five telephone conversations with Gorbachev. Did you discuss a possible NATO enlargement -- beyond the GDR? >> Shevardnadze: No. We only had German reunification on the agenda, nothing else.

StanislavPetrov 3y ago
>>> If NATO didn't insist on expanding after the fall of the Soviet Union (as promised by James Baker and others) >Prominent members of Soviet leadership have explicitly denied that such subject ever came up. Nor did Russian representatives ever mention anything like it when most of Eastern Europe joined NATO in late 1990s and early 2000s. >This conspiracy theory emerged in late 2000s Some of us are actually old enough to have been adults when the Soviet Union fell and to have lived through that period of time. We were around to witness Baker promise that NATO would not expand "one inch Eastward" of Germany. >You are not offering some nuanced alternative view, but reurgitating known proven lies This is a comically bad effort to gaslight people who lived through the period and actually witnessed exactly what transpired. Unfortunately many younger people who weren't around to witness what actually happened, and many people who are uninformed and/or misinformed are easily misled by gaslighting like this. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017...
- chrysler 3y ago
  >> Some of us are actually old enough to have been adults when the Soviet Union fell and to have lived through that period of time. So am I, and I remember very well how this hoax appeared out of nowhere in late 2000s. But as Shevardnadze points out, a suggestion of such talks in 1990 is anachronistic, because at the time, fall of the Warsaw Pact and the USSR was beyond comprehension and not discussed. According to him and other direct participants, the quotes that have been taken out of context to "prove" this hoax were in fact limited to German reunification. Eastern Europe getting into NATO and under "American nuclear umbrella" wasn't a serious topic until mid-1990s, first such ideas were floated in 1992-1993 timeframe and initially thought to be very far-fetched, because Russian forces were still in former Eastern bloc countries. The last Russian forces left Poland only in September 1993. Actual negotiations for the first countries started in July 1997 and were preceded by a treaty in May 1997 between NATO and Russia affirming the respect towards third countries freely choosing their alliances. To put it bluntly, the hoax doesn't fit the timeline of events.

StanislavPetrov 3y ago

>>> If NATO didn't insist on expanding after the fall of the Soviet Union (as promised by James Baker and others) >Prominent members of Soviet leadership have explicitly denied that such subject ever came up. Nor did Russian representatives ever mention anything like it when most of Eastern Europe joined NATO in late 1990s and early 2000s. >This conspiracy theory emerged in late 2000s Some of us are actually old enough to have been adults when the Soviet Union fell and to have lived through that period of time. We were around to witness Baker promise that NATO would not expand "one inch Eastward" of Germany. >You are not offering some nuanced alternative view, but reurgitating known proven lies This is a comically bad effort to gaslight people who lived through the period and actually witnessed exactly what transpired. Unfortunately many younger people who weren't around to witness what actually happened, and many people who are uninformed and/or misinformed are easily misled by gaslighting like this. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017...

chrysler 3y ago
>> Some of us are actually old enough to have been adults when the Soviet Union fell and to have lived through that period of time. So am I, and I remember very well how this hoax appeared out of nowhere in late 2000s. But as Shevardnadze points out, a suggestion of such talks in 1990 is anachronistic, because at the time, fall of the Warsaw Pact and the USSR was beyond comprehension and not discussed. According to him and other direct participants, the quotes that have been taken out of context to "prove" this hoax were in fact limited to German reunification. Eastern Europe getting into NATO and under "American nuclear umbrella" wasn't a serious topic until mid-1990s, first such ideas were floated in 1992-1993 timeframe and initially thought to be very far-fetched, because Russian forces were still in former Eastern bloc countries. The last Russian forces left Poland only in September 1993. Actual negotiations for the first countries started in July 1997 and were preceded by a treaty in May 1997 between NATO and Russia affirming the respect towards third countries freely choosing their alliances. To put it bluntly, the hoax doesn't fit the timeline of events.