3 ms·

It is a difficult thing for some people to understand. But sometimes good people can do bad things. Were most of his policies based on the betterment of the op

It is a difficult thing for some people to understand. But sometimes good people can do bad things. Were most of his policies based on the betterment of the oppressed? Absolutely. Did he oversee one of the most objectively bigoted things that happened in 1942? Absolutely. Was Roosevelt a bigot? I do not know. But, is it fair to say that he was a reactionary bigot? Maybe. That's the thing about people. They're very, very rarely one thing to the exclusion of all else. Violent racists can be outstanding community members on a very local scale. Extremely inclusive pacifists can be assholes to the people in their lives.

lapcat 3y ago
Would be it any better to say "non-reactionary bigot"? I think "reactionary bigot" is just a commonplace phrase often said perfunctorily, but I'm not sure the meaning of the original comment would change if the word "reactionary" was deleted. The argument over the word seems pedantic in the context. The original point is that Takei faced multiple forms of bigotry in his life.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  Why would it be better? Internment was a reactionary policy! GGP is raising an objection over labels that are accurate.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > Internment was a reactionary policy! The definition of reactionary is "opposing political or social liberalization or reform". Whereas internment was a reaction, indeed an overreaction, to the war with Japan, based on the bigoted fear that Japanese-Americans were loyal to Japan rather than to America. Not exactly the same.
    - Loughla 3y ago
      Yes, if you are exclusively pedantic, then it is not an exact fit in the meaning. I would argue that the common use of the word reactionary = person who reacts to something inappropriately. But getting lost in pedantry instead of just moving through common usage when in regular human discourse is useless. There is no reason to walk down that road, other than to obfuscate any point the other person is trying to make behind a smoke screen of pseudo-intellectualism. Sort of like I tried to do with those last two sentences.
    - acdha 3y ago
      This is a pretty pedantic debate but my reason for using it was that I think a factor in this wasn’t just generic anti-Asian sentiment but also the idea that they were new and challenging the image of the United States as a white country. California politics had a nasty “yellow horde” streak which feels distinct from, say, bigotry directed against native Americans or, in the south, Mexicans which tended to recognize their historical presence, treating them as kind of hapless children needing white guidance rather than invaders.
soundnote 3y ago
I routinely have to hear from left-leaning friends about how me and my family should be killed. They're completely ok with fantasizing about mass murder since they're Good People and their targets are acceptable. All their eat the richery is extra funny since the worst offenders are well paid programmers. They are of course not in line for the guillotine or the wall. Their comments about Christians are likewise really funny stuff to listen to. Just a constant, unthinking stream of abject bigotry from people who consider themselves openminded. I don't think they realize what they sound like to people outside their bubble.
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  I think you need to find some new friends.
- BaseballPhysics 3y ago
  > I routinely have to hear from left-leaning friends about how me and my family should be killed. Uhuh. Sure you do.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - soundnote 3y ago
    Is it so unbelieveable that people hopped up on self-righteousness might end up behaving like garbage?
    - BaseballPhysics 3y ago
      Yes, it is extremely difficult to believe that you "routinely have to hear from left-leaning friends about how [you and your] family should be killed". It's so comically exaggerated that I must assume you're either trolling or delusional. Most charitably, my guess is you've developed a persecution complex which has you hearing a comment like (as an example) "the US would be better off if the GOP just disappeared" as "we must murder all conservatives". Meanwhile, one side of the political spectrum appears more likely to inspire actual politically-motivated violence, and it's not the one you seem to be pointing the finger at: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119 > In short, our individual-level examination found that among radicalized individuals in the United States, those adhering to a left-wing ideology were markedly less likely to engage in violent ideologically motivated acts when compared to right-wing individuals. ... > When compared to individuals associated with a right-wing ideology, individuals adhering to a left-wing ideology had 68% lower odds of engaging in violent (vs. nonviolent) radical behavior (b = −1.15, SE = 0.13, odds ratio [OR] = 0.32, P < 0.001). On the other hand, the difference between individuals motivated by Islamist and right-wing causes was not significant (b = 0.05, SE = 0.14, OR = 1.05, P = 0.747). Expressed in terms of predicted probabilities, the probability of left-wing violent attack was 0.33, that of right-wing violent attack was 0.61, and that of Islamist violent attack was 0.62. Which, of course, is just more data backing up the many many analyses that right-wing violence is by far a greater threat than left-wing violence (this is from 2020): https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-u... > Overall, right-wing terrorists perpetrated the majority—57 percent—of all attacks and plots during this period, compared to 25 percent committed by left-wing terrorists, 15 percent by religious terrorists, 3 percent by ethnonationalists, and 0.7 percent by terrorists with other motives. ... > Our data suggest that right-wing extremists pose the most significant terrorism threat to the United States, based on annual terrorist events and fatalities. In fact, it's become institutionalized as this point. A recent poll showed that '30% of Republicans agree with the statement, “Because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.' Alarming? I'd say so. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/01/05/assessing-the-right-wing-terror-threat-in-the-united-states-a-year-after-the-january-6-insurrection/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/01/05/a... So, hey, let's pretend for a moment that you are in fact surrounded by crazed lefties that talk to you about exterminating you and your family over your political views. There's one big difference between them and folks on the American right: They're far less likely to actually do anything about it.
Volundr 3y ago
Abraham Lincoln supported enshrining slavery in the constitution. Einstein and MLK were serial adulterers. George Washington owned slaves. Let's not even start on Columbus. There's something about human nature that makes us want to think of influential people as saints but rarely do they live up to that standard. We'd be far better off if we could banish this tendency from society.

lapcat 3y ago

Would be it any better to say "non-reactionary bigot"? I think "reactionary bigot" is just a commonplace phrase often said perfunctorily, but I'm not sure the meaning of the original comment would change if the word "reactionary" was deleted. The argument over the word seems pedantic in the context. The original point is that Takei faced multiple forms of bigotry in his life.

jakelazaroff 3y ago
Why would it be better? Internment was a reactionary policy! GGP is raising an objection over labels that are accurate.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > Internment was a reactionary policy! The definition of reactionary is "opposing political or social liberalization or reform". Whereas internment was a reaction, indeed an overreaction, to the war with Japan, based on the bigoted fear that Japanese-Americans were loyal to Japan rather than to America. Not exactly the same.
  - Loughla 3y ago
    Yes, if you are exclusively pedantic, then it is not an exact fit in the meaning. I would argue that the common use of the word reactionary = person who reacts to something inappropriately. But getting lost in pedantry instead of just moving through common usage when in regular human discourse is useless. There is no reason to walk down that road, other than to obfuscate any point the other person is trying to make behind a smoke screen of pseudo-intellectualism. Sort of like I tried to do with those last two sentences.
  - acdha 3y ago
    This is a pretty pedantic debate but my reason for using it was that I think a factor in this wasn’t just generic anti-Asian sentiment but also the idea that they were new and challenging the image of the United States as a white country. California politics had a nasty “yellow horde” streak which feels distinct from, say, bigotry directed against native Americans or, in the south, Mexicans which tended to recognize their historical presence, treating them as kind of hapless children needing white guidance rather than invaders.

soundnote 3y ago

I routinely have to hear from left-leaning friends about how me and my family should be killed. They're completely ok with fantasizing about mass murder since they're Good People and their targets are acceptable. All their eat the richery is extra funny since the worst offenders are well paid programmers. They are of course not in line for the guillotine or the wall. Their comments about Christians are likewise really funny stuff to listen to. Just a constant, unthinking stream of abject bigotry from people who consider themselves openminded. I don't think they realize what they sound like to people outside their bubble.

amanaplanacanal 3y ago
I think you need to find some new friends.
BaseballPhysics 3y ago
> I routinely have to hear from left-leaning friends about how me and my family should be killed. Uhuh. Sure you do.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- soundnote 3y ago
  Is it so unbelieveable that people hopped up on self-righteousness might end up behaving like garbage?
  - BaseballPhysics 3y ago
    Yes, it is extremely difficult to believe that you "routinely have to hear from left-leaning friends about how [you and your] family should be killed". It's so comically exaggerated that I must assume you're either trolling or delusional. Most charitably, my guess is you've developed a persecution complex which has you hearing a comment like (as an example) "the US would be better off if the GOP just disappeared" as "we must murder all conservatives". Meanwhile, one side of the political spectrum appears more likely to inspire actual politically-motivated violence, and it's not the one you seem to be pointing the finger at: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119 > In short, our individual-level examination found that among radicalized individuals in the United States, those adhering to a left-wing ideology were markedly less likely to engage in violent ideologically motivated acts when compared to right-wing individuals. ... > When compared to individuals associated with a right-wing ideology, individuals adhering to a left-wing ideology had 68% lower odds of engaging in violent (vs. nonviolent) radical behavior (b = −1.15, SE = 0.13, odds ratio [OR] = 0.32, P < 0.001). On the other hand, the difference between individuals motivated by Islamist and right-wing causes was not significant (b = 0.05, SE = 0.14, OR = 1.05, P = 0.747). Expressed in terms of predicted probabilities, the probability of left-wing violent attack was 0.33, that of right-wing violent attack was 0.61, and that of Islamist violent attack was 0.62. Which, of course, is just more data backing up the many many analyses that right-wing violence is by far a greater threat than left-wing violence (this is from 2020): https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-u... > Overall, right-wing terrorists perpetrated the majority—57 percent—of all attacks and plots during this period, compared to 25 percent committed by left-wing terrorists, 15 percent by religious terrorists, 3 percent by ethnonationalists, and 0.7 percent by terrorists with other motives. ... > Our data suggest that right-wing extremists pose the most significant terrorism threat to the United States, based on annual terrorist events and fatalities. In fact, it's become institutionalized as this point. A recent poll showed that '30% of Republicans agree with the statement, “Because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.' Alarming? I'd say so. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/01/05/assessing-the-right-wing-terror-threat-in-the-united-states-a-year-after-the-january-6-insurrection/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/01/05/a... So, hey, let's pretend for a moment that you are in fact surrounded by crazed lefties that talk to you about exterminating you and your family over your political views. There's one big difference between them and folks on the American right: They're far less likely to actually do anything about it.

Volundr 3y ago

Abraham Lincoln supported enshrining slavery in the constitution. Einstein and MLK were serial adulterers. George Washington owned slaves. Let's not even start on Columbus. There's something about human nature that makes us want to think of influential people as saints but rarely do they live up to that standard. We'd be far better off if we could banish this tendency from society.