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Thank you for this comment. It's fascinating how everyone else in this thread seems to view education as a tool purely to acquire qualifications rather than for

Thank you for this comment. It's fascinating how everyone else in this thread seems to view education as a tool purely to acquire qualifications rather than for actually learning anything. I wonder if this is a US thing that has come about as the result of education becoming a financial instrument.

catapart 3y ago
I honestly think it's more of a reactionary thing. Cheating is bad. That's a pretty uncontroversial statement. Whatever the criteria for "cheating", if we're all agreeing that you did it, that's bad and deserves 'correction'. Once you're there, there's not a lot of reason to go further. "Did he cheat? Yes? Then he bad." Easy peasy, next topic of consideration. Why spend more time on something that has a simple answer? In this scenario, the students did what would have unequivocally been a "cheat", in generations past. They looked up answers and used them to prove knowledge. That's what every person who ever failed a math test for cheating did. So, again, even going deeper, this is cheating, plain and simple. No need to wade in any further, when you've already given the benefit of the doubt. Of course, this not being math, and technology replacing the need for such conventions in math are both important considerations that change the context. But, you have to give it now a third thought before you even get to this point, and of course, here's where things are quite subjective. I bet people would still pretend that knowing math is important for whatever corner of life they inhabit ("I work construction and geometry makes you a pro", "gotta be able to calculate tips", "you'll get killed on contracts with tricky rates"). Most would also quickly concede that if they were just taught how to get to interfaces (apps/websites/etc) that solve those problems, that would be effective as well (even if they couldn't help adding "but knowing is faster/better/convenient/etc"). And so, not only are we dealing with subjectivity and historical bias, but now also a confirmation bias. And all of that is on top of the authority bias that a lot of people START with ("the authority said don't do it; the students did it; they should fail." So, personally, I don't chalk up to indoctrination/conspiracy/malice anything that can be assumed to be myopia/selfishness/fear/distrust/etc. Humans are capable of the formers, but far more susceptible to the latters. That said, I'm never going to defend the US educational system, so I'm not disagree with you.
- elliotto 3y ago
  Your point about it being an authority bias is really interesting and in line with a lot of the political views I encounter on this venture capital forum. It might also tie in a bit to the US disposition towards punitive vs rehabilitative imprisonment. Everyone is very quick to suggest brutal punishment for the people who have contradicted the will of the authoritative system, but people aren't really so interested in discussing both why they've done so, and the societal consequences of that disobedience. And even then, not considered the impact on the individual being punished; many people seem to be wishing permanent banishment from the university system for cheating in what is probably a random side unit elective class.
gizmo 3y ago
Cheating is extremely common, so much so that students cheat during an ethics exam. People overwhelmingly find justifications for their actions, and cheaters are no exception. From the comments in this thread you can draw the obvious conclusion: many people here justify cheating because they are cheaters themselves and they don’t want to acknowledge cheating is shameful.

catapart 3y ago

I honestly think it's more of a reactionary thing. Cheating is bad. That's a pretty uncontroversial statement. Whatever the criteria for "cheating", if we're all agreeing that you did it, that's bad and deserves 'correction'. Once you're there, there's not a lot of reason to go further. "Did he cheat? Yes? Then he bad." Easy peasy, next topic of consideration. Why spend more time on something that has a simple answer? In this scenario, the students did what would have unequivocally been a "cheat", in generations past. They looked up answers and used them to prove knowledge. That's what every person who ever failed a math test for cheating did. So, again, even going deeper, this is cheating, plain and simple. No need to wade in any further, when you've already given the benefit of the doubt. Of course, this not being math, and technology replacing the need for such conventions in math are both important considerations that change the context. But, you have to give it now a third thought before you even get to this point, and of course, here's where things are quite subjective. I bet people would still pretend that knowing math is important for whatever corner of life they inhabit ("I work construction and geometry makes you a pro", "gotta be able to calculate tips", "you'll get killed on contracts with tricky rates"). Most would also quickly concede that if they were just taught how to get to interfaces (apps/websites/etc) that solve those problems, that would be effective as well (even if they couldn't help adding "but knowing is faster/better/convenient/etc"). And so, not only are we dealing with subjectivity and historical bias, but now also a confirmation bias. And all of that is on top of the authority bias that a lot of people START with ("the authority said don't do it; the students did it; they should fail." So, personally, I don't chalk up to indoctrination/conspiracy/malice anything that can be assumed to be myopia/selfishness/fear/distrust/etc. Humans are capable of the formers, but far more susceptible to the latters. That said, I'm never going to defend the US educational system, so I'm not disagree with you.

elliotto 3y ago
Your point about it being an authority bias is really interesting and in line with a lot of the political views I encounter on this venture capital forum. It might also tie in a bit to the US disposition towards punitive vs rehabilitative imprisonment. Everyone is very quick to suggest brutal punishment for the people who have contradicted the will of the authoritative system, but people aren't really so interested in discussing both why they've done so, and the societal consequences of that disobedience. And even then, not considered the impact on the individual being punished; many people seem to be wishing permanent banishment from the university system for cheating in what is probably a random side unit elective class.

gizmo 3y ago

Cheating is extremely common, so much so that students cheat during an ethics exam. People overwhelmingly find justifications for their actions, and cheaters are no exception. From the comments in this thread you can draw the obvious conclusion: many people here justify cheating because they are cheaters themselves and they don’t want to acknowledge cheating is shameful.