5 ms·

If you're suggesting we should all be okay with the idea of tipping before the service is ever completed just to ensure that the service even happens, well... T

If you're suggesting we should all be okay with the idea of tipping before the service is ever completed just to ensure that the service even happens, well... That seems more like a bribe than a tip. I'm not sure that's something we should be supporting.

hotpotamus 3y ago
Yes, it seems based on the downvotes that the idea of flipping the power dynamic is an unpopular one. I'll admit that my actual radical idea is this - businesses should charge customers what it costs to deliver services and then pay their employees to do so.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  Where’s the incentive to give good service if you’ve already received the tip? A tip is supposed to be a monetary reward for going above doing the bare minimum job, and therefore I agree with OP, the tip should come after the service, not before it.
  - birdyrooster 3y ago
    Humans usually, unless incredible entitled, feel obligated to work for the person with enough humility to tip them first instead of leaving them wondering if their hard work will even pay off. I don’t want to abuse them by making them spend time in the latter camp.
    - lockhouse 3y ago
      Many humans are incredibly entitled. Just the fact that people have come to expect a tip for doing their basic job is an entitled attitude. It’s not abusing a service worker by not paying them extra money for doing their literal job with bare minimal effort.
      - haswell 3y ago
        > Just the fact that people have come to expect a tip for doing their basic job is an entitled attitude. I understand the point you’re trying to make here, but it’s not this simple in the US. From the department of labor [0]: > An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 per hour in direct wages if that amount combined with the tips received at least equals the federal minimum wage It is both true that the service worker depends on those tips because base pay is allowed to be unreasonably low and it is unreasonable to expect a good tip for poor service. Given the structure of the system as it currently exists, I’d argue it approaches a moral obligation either to factor tipping into your plans if those plans involve service workers or to intentionally avoid establishments that force workers to depend on tips. For me, this means: doing the bare minimum gets you a middle of the road tip. I’ll tip well for going above and beyond, and only tip poorly if the service was truly terrible. And if a place has a no tipping policy, I’ll give them my business over others. While I’ve encountered workers who had unreasonable expectations, that’s pretty rare. The true “entitlement” here comes from establishments that continue to force their workers to depend on tips. Another form of entitlement would be eating at such establishments while refusing to tip. - [0] https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips
        lockhouse 3y ago
        I’m not understanding the point you’re trying to make here. An employee will receive minimum wage from their employer if they don’t receive enough tips to exceed it. This is required by law.
        haswell 3y ago
        The point is that not tipping is implicitly endorsing minimum wage as acceptable for the role, since the only possible way for these employees to make a living is through tips. The fact that the employer is required to pick up the slack is of little consolation, and certainly not a reason to assume that not tipping is ok. This rule would be more meaningful if minimum wage was a meaningful number. Put more simply: until there are broader changes to tipping culture, it is perfectly understandable that people expect a tip. That is not to say that entitlement doesn’t exist, and I’ve had a server or two get upset for a middling tip after mediocre service. But it would be similarly entitled to assume that the minimum wage fallback somehow makes not tipping acceptable. (None of this should be construed as an endorsement of tipping culture).
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    Do you receive tips from your customers? And does the answer to that question determine the quality of your work?
    - lockhouse 3y ago
      I’m salaried and would not accept tips even if offered. However when I eat at a sit down restaurant, the size of the tip I pay is very much determined by the quality of the service I receive. If you frown the entire time, don’t come back to refill our drinks at all, screw up half of the orders at the table, and make me wait a ridiculous time after we’ve finished our meals for the check, you don’t deserve a good tip.
      - hotpotamus 3y ago
        > I’m salaried and would not accept tips even if offered. Then you would not accept the payment model that you desire for restaurant workers?
        lockhouse 3y ago
        No I wouldn't, but that's ok because I found a job that compensates me on terms I find acceptable. Nobody is forcing anyone to work a service job for tips in this country. Tips are supposed to be a aww thanks, you thought I did a good job. I'm fine with tipping being an option, just don't expect it, particularly if you just give me mediocre or less service.
        hotpotamus 3y ago
        I'd say the matter of coercion is not so simple, but the subject of this post is that more and more places seem to be asking for tips, so it would seem like more workers are being asked to accept this model of compensation.
  - ttfkam 3y ago
    The tipping system exists so an employer can pay next to nothing and pretend the system is meritocratic. It was an end run around the fact that you couldn't underpay slaves anymore in the US. The solution is to abolish tips in the tax code/minimum wage laws and have employers pay the full wage directly. No more tip jars anywhere, just like in every other developed nation in the world. "Service est compris."
- youreincorrect 3y ago
  > flipping the power dynamic Kind of an absurd notion to throw onto someone paying to have someone else deliver something. There shouldn't be a power dynamic here at all. If that means getting rid of tipping entirely, then I support that.
  - ttfkam 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - youreincorrect 3y ago
      I have. But if you have a point that isn't ad hominem, I'm happy to listen.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    > There shouldn't be a power dynamic here at all. I agree, but when you leave a blank box determining the pay of the person providing a service, then I don't see how you avoid it.

hotpotamus 3y ago

Yes, it seems based on the downvotes that the idea of flipping the power dynamic is an unpopular one. I'll admit that my actual radical idea is this - businesses should charge customers what it costs to deliver services and then pay their employees to do so.

lockhouse 3y ago
Where’s the incentive to give good service if you’ve already received the tip? A tip is supposed to be a monetary reward for going above doing the bare minimum job, and therefore I agree with OP, the tip should come after the service, not before it.
- birdyrooster 3y ago
  Humans usually, unless incredible entitled, feel obligated to work for the person with enough humility to tip them first instead of leaving them wondering if their hard work will even pay off. I don’t want to abuse them by making them spend time in the latter camp.
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    Many humans are incredibly entitled. Just the fact that people have come to expect a tip for doing their basic job is an entitled attitude. It’s not abusing a service worker by not paying them extra money for doing their literal job with bare minimal effort.
    - haswell 3y ago
      > Just the fact that people have come to expect a tip for doing their basic job is an entitled attitude. I understand the point you’re trying to make here, but it’s not this simple in the US. From the department of labor [0]: > An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 per hour in direct wages if that amount combined with the tips received at least equals the federal minimum wage It is both true that the service worker depends on those tips because base pay is allowed to be unreasonably low and it is unreasonable to expect a good tip for poor service. Given the structure of the system as it currently exists, I’d argue it approaches a moral obligation either to factor tipping into your plans if those plans involve service workers or to intentionally avoid establishments that force workers to depend on tips. For me, this means: doing the bare minimum gets you a middle of the road tip. I’ll tip well for going above and beyond, and only tip poorly if the service was truly terrible. And if a place has a no tipping policy, I’ll give them my business over others. While I’ve encountered workers who had unreasonable expectations, that’s pretty rare. The true “entitlement” here comes from establishments that continue to force their workers to depend on tips. Another form of entitlement would be eating at such establishments while refusing to tip. - [0] https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips
      - lockhouse 3y ago
        I’m not understanding the point you’re trying to make here. An employee will receive minimum wage from their employer if they don’t receive enough tips to exceed it. This is required by law.
        haswell 3y ago
        The point is that not tipping is implicitly endorsing minimum wage as acceptable for the role, since the only possible way for these employees to make a living is through tips. The fact that the employer is required to pick up the slack is of little consolation, and certainly not a reason to assume that not tipping is ok. This rule would be more meaningful if minimum wage was a meaningful number. Put more simply: until there are broader changes to tipping culture, it is perfectly understandable that people expect a tip. That is not to say that entitlement doesn’t exist, and I’ve had a server or two get upset for a middling tip after mediocre service. But it would be similarly entitled to assume that the minimum wage fallback somehow makes not tipping acceptable. (None of this should be construed as an endorsement of tipping culture).
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  Do you receive tips from your customers? And does the answer to that question determine the quality of your work?
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    I’m salaried and would not accept tips even if offered. However when I eat at a sit down restaurant, the size of the tip I pay is very much determined by the quality of the service I receive. If you frown the entire time, don’t come back to refill our drinks at all, screw up half of the orders at the table, and make me wait a ridiculous time after we’ve finished our meals for the check, you don’t deserve a good tip.
    - hotpotamus 3y ago
      > I’m salaried and would not accept tips even if offered. Then you would not accept the payment model that you desire for restaurant workers?
      - lockhouse 3y ago
        No I wouldn't, but that's ok because I found a job that compensates me on terms I find acceptable. Nobody is forcing anyone to work a service job for tips in this country. Tips are supposed to be a aww thanks, you thought I did a good job. I'm fine with tipping being an option, just don't expect it, particularly if you just give me mediocre or less service.
        hotpotamus 3y ago
        I'd say the matter of coercion is not so simple, but the subject of this post is that more and more places seem to be asking for tips, so it would seem like more workers are being asked to accept this model of compensation.
- ttfkam 3y ago
  The tipping system exists so an employer can pay next to nothing and pretend the system is meritocratic. It was an end run around the fact that you couldn't underpay slaves anymore in the US. The solution is to abolish tips in the tax code/minimum wage laws and have employers pay the full wage directly. No more tip jars anywhere, just like in every other developed nation in the world. "Service est compris."
youreincorrect 3y ago
> flipping the power dynamic Kind of an absurd notion to throw onto someone paying to have someone else deliver something. There shouldn't be a power dynamic here at all. If that means getting rid of tipping entirely, then I support that.
- ttfkam 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - youreincorrect 3y ago
    I have. But if you have a point that isn't ad hominem, I'm happy to listen.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  > There shouldn't be a power dynamic here at all. I agree, but when you leave a blank box determining the pay of the person providing a service, then I don't see how you avoid it.