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A teacher at my university was fired for failing students who were caught cheating in an introductory CS class. The ones in charge didn't like that he was causi

A teacher at my university was fired for failing students who were caught cheating in an introductory CS class. The ones in charge didn't like that he was causing a disturbance. They would rather have had the cheaters get away with it. The system is broken.

butterNaN 3y ago
That is indeed some disproportionate reaction to just failing some students in introductory CS class. (So much that I feel there must be more to the story.) > The system is broken This is truer than it sounds. The very design of Examinations itself is broken in most places. It shouldn't be possible by design to cheat in my opinion. "Open-book" exams are harder to set, but I think the whole cheating-prevention infrastructure is harder, costlier, and pointless.
- okennedy 3y ago
  Even open book exams can be gamed. There are whole industries set up around enabling in-exam communication (e.g. concealed subvocal mics/headphones) and outsourcing schoolwork. It is definitely possible to design assessments on which cheating is difficult. For example, oral examinations or personalized per-student projects or exams. The problem is that this style of personalized assessment fundamentally does not scale past a few dozen students in a classroom. You want a classroom that small, it's going to cost you. Just instructor salaries for would run each student 10-30k per year, and that's before paying for infrastructure (classrooms, tech, offices) and (admittedly not always useful) administration.
  - butterNaN 3y ago
    > Even open book exams can be gamed Of course, yes, nothing's perfect. But Open book exams are far better bargain than what the most popular method of exams is as of today.
    - warkdarrior 3y ago
      Would "open book" include access to Google search and to ChatGPT?
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    Smaller class sizes is definitely a huge boon for everybody involved. I went to a mid-sized private uni, where a large class size was maybe in the low 30 students range, and many were closer to 10-15, and the experience was dramatically better than my friends at other universities got. Professors knew the vast majority of us by name, and had at least an approximate idea of your grasp on the course material. Cheating was solved with a pretty straightforward approach: don't make it trivial to cheat (re-using test questions, question-bank multiple choice tests, etc) to keep the honest students honest, then trust the students. If someone's caught violating that trust, send them to the business school. (I don't know what they did with cheaters in the business school. I assume promote them)
- zvolsky 3y ago
  Our best computer networks teacher from secondary school decided to leave following complaints from parents, who believed that the tests were too difficult. As I remember, about 3/4 of our class had a tough time. Honestly, the tests weren't all that hard. I suspect there was some crowd effect taking place, which resulted in people collectively giving up. This turned out to be a significant blow to the standard of our education. The subsequent teachers were neither as knowledgeable, nor as effective in teaching the subjects.
asoneth 3y ago
> The system is broken. That may be university-by-university thing. I briefly managed an academic department at an old, highly-ranked university. Professors regularly caught cheaters and there was never any question that they would fail the course. The only question was whether the incident was mild enough that they would be permitted to try again next semester or severe enough to leave the university. The administration supported us 100% as this was seen as essential to defending the value of the degree conferred on the other students. Without some kind of standards we'd eventually become just another degree mill. What surprised me most was how many students who never finished the degree (not just cheating -- some just got job offers and decided not to stick around) still listed the degree on their resume/CV. The problem is that many companies now call the school to check as part of their hiring process, and the school would inform them that they had enrolled but had not been granted the degree. In retrospect I wish I had instituted a policy of letting the ex-student know in those cases, because I'm not sure if hiring companies tell them and I wonder how many people think they're just unlucky or something.
- beambot 3y ago
  Faked degrees happen all the time, sometimes in very prominent circumstances. E.g. > MIT Admissions Dean Resigns After Fake Degrees Come to Light https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2007/4/26/mit-admissions-dean-resigns-after-fake/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2007/4/26/mit-admissions-...
denton-scratch 3y ago
I once worked as a part-time visiting lecturer in CS. I routinely got assignments handed-in that students had evidently copied from one-another. More than half of the students were handing in copied work. In at least one case, they hadn't even botherd to change the name at the top. Usually they had the sense to change variable- and function-names, but not always. As a newbie lecturer, I asked my colleagues what to do. They said: "You can fail them. You'll be accused of racism (most of the students were brown-skinned). They will appeal; you'll then have to sit on exam boards through the summer, which is unpaid for a visting P/T lecturer. There's a good chance the school will overrule you, because these are paying overseas students." "Or you can tell them that you've noticed the 'sharing' that's been going on; that collaboration and sharing is encouraged, but that they must never do it in marked assignments." I adopted the latter course of action. Being a part-time visiting lecturer is a crap job.
- sebzim4500 3y ago
  Honestly if people are working together to do assignments that's not the end of the world. IMO you probably learn more doing it that way. If people are selling answers that's a different story, but that's what in person exams are for.
- johnny99k 3y ago
  I remember when I was taking software development classes in 2003/4, when I was finishing my computer science degree. I helped a buddy of mine out on one of the projects by basically writing it for him. I re-wrote my project in a completely different style. We both got 100%. If you are going to cheat, do it right and actually show some imagination and creativity.
  - ourmandave 3y ago
    Once AI starts grading papers you'll have to be more clever than that. Like re-code your project in another language and then back again.
    - g_sch 3y ago

butterNaN 3y ago

That is indeed some disproportionate reaction to just failing some students in introductory CS class. (So much that I feel there must be more to the story.) > The system is broken This is truer than it sounds. The very design of Examinations itself is broken in most places. It shouldn't be possible by design to cheat in my opinion. "Open-book" exams are harder to set, but I think the whole cheating-prevention infrastructure is harder, costlier, and pointless.

okennedy 3y ago
Even open book exams can be gamed. There are whole industries set up around enabling in-exam communication (e.g. concealed subvocal mics/headphones) and outsourcing schoolwork. It is definitely possible to design assessments on which cheating is difficult. For example, oral examinations or personalized per-student projects or exams. The problem is that this style of personalized assessment fundamentally does not scale past a few dozen students in a classroom. You want a classroom that small, it's going to cost you. Just instructor salaries for would run each student 10-30k per year, and that's before paying for infrastructure (classrooms, tech, offices) and (admittedly not always useful) administration.
- butterNaN 3y ago
  > Even open book exams can be gamed Of course, yes, nothing's perfect. But Open book exams are far better bargain than what the most popular method of exams is as of today.
  - warkdarrior 3y ago
    Would "open book" include access to Google search and to ChatGPT?
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  Smaller class sizes is definitely a huge boon for everybody involved. I went to a mid-sized private uni, where a large class size was maybe in the low 30 students range, and many were closer to 10-15, and the experience was dramatically better than my friends at other universities got. Professors knew the vast majority of us by name, and had at least an approximate idea of your grasp on the course material. Cheating was solved with a pretty straightforward approach: don't make it trivial to cheat (re-using test questions, question-bank multiple choice tests, etc) to keep the honest students honest, then trust the students. If someone's caught violating that trust, send them to the business school. (I don't know what they did with cheaters in the business school. I assume promote them)
zvolsky 3y ago
Our best computer networks teacher from secondary school decided to leave following complaints from parents, who believed that the tests were too difficult. As I remember, about 3/4 of our class had a tough time. Honestly, the tests weren't all that hard. I suspect there was some crowd effect taking place, which resulted in people collectively giving up. This turned out to be a significant blow to the standard of our education. The subsequent teachers were neither as knowledgeable, nor as effective in teaching the subjects.

asoneth 3y ago

> The system is broken. That may be university-by-university thing. I briefly managed an academic department at an old, highly-ranked university. Professors regularly caught cheaters and there was never any question that they would fail the course. The only question was whether the incident was mild enough that they would be permitted to try again next semester or severe enough to leave the university. The administration supported us 100% as this was seen as essential to defending the value of the degree conferred on the other students. Without some kind of standards we'd eventually become just another degree mill. What surprised me most was how many students who never finished the degree (not just cheating -- some just got job offers and decided not to stick around) still listed the degree on their resume/CV. The problem is that many companies now call the school to check as part of their hiring process, and the school would inform them that they had enrolled but had not been granted the degree. In retrospect I wish I had instituted a policy of letting the ex-student know in those cases, because I'm not sure if hiring companies tell them and I wonder how many people think they're just unlucky or something.

beambot 3y ago
Faked degrees happen all the time, sometimes in very prominent circumstances. E.g. > MIT Admissions Dean Resigns After Fake Degrees Come to Light https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2007/4/26/mit-admissions-dean-resigns-after-fake/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2007/4/26/mit-admissions-...

denton-scratch 3y ago

I once worked as a part-time visiting lecturer in CS. I routinely got assignments handed-in that students had evidently copied from one-another. More than half of the students were handing in copied work. In at least one case, they hadn't even botherd to change the name at the top. Usually they had the sense to change variable- and function-names, but not always. As a newbie lecturer, I asked my colleagues what to do. They said: "You can fail them. You'll be accused of racism (most of the students were brown-skinned). They will appeal; you'll then have to sit on exam boards through the summer, which is unpaid for a visting P/T lecturer. There's a good chance the school will overrule you, because these are paying overseas students." "Or you can tell them that you've noticed the 'sharing' that's been going on; that collaboration and sharing is encouraged, but that they must never do it in marked assignments." I adopted the latter course of action. Being a part-time visiting lecturer is a crap job.

sebzim4500 3y ago
Honestly if people are working together to do assignments that's not the end of the world. IMO you probably learn more doing it that way. If people are selling answers that's a different story, but that's what in person exams are for.
johnny99k 3y ago
I remember when I was taking software development classes in 2003/4, when I was finishing my computer science degree. I helped a buddy of mine out on one of the projects by basically writing it for him. I re-wrote my project in a completely different style. We both got 100%. If you are going to cheat, do it right and actually show some imagination and creativity.
- ourmandave 3y ago
  Once AI starts grading papers you'll have to be more clever than that. Like re-code your project in another language and then back again.
  - g_sch 3y ago