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Wordpress is a platform or framework, HTMX is neither. If you don't like what HTMX offers for your next feature... just don't use HTMX attributes on those eleme

Wordpress is a platform or framework, HTMX is neither. If you don't like what HTMX offers for your next feature... just don't use HTMX attributes on those elements. So comparing it to WordPress, or React, etc. is not accurate.

dmix 3y ago
If you think this analogy is about frameworks vs libraries you missed the point. It's the exact sort of technology option that is simple and accessible on the surface which is why someone inexperienced would adopt it in the early days. Then requirements naturally evolve and it gets shoehorned into ever more complex situations it was never intended for. I'm speaking from experience and anyone who has worked in web app dev / JS for any length of time can see this coming from a mile away. The mountain of jQuery libraries alone should be enough but in the history of the internet WordPress is the classic cliché example of a simple technology that frequently gets abused beyond its original design. If your project is small and niche then obviously this critique isn't relevant. Nor is it dismissing the utility of htmx.
- pphysch 3y ago
  Then you need to explain it better. There is nothing wrong with offering simple solutions. The problem with WordPress is that you can't just stop using it and painlessly swap to a more powerful framework/platform. You can really dig yourself into a hole. This doesn't apply to HTMX.
  - dmix 3y ago
    You must not work on frontend because I've seen plenty of "simple" libraries exactly like htmx adopted and turned into monsters that power entire SaaS products the same way WordPress is turned into pseudo custom Web apps by non-programmers countess times. Being the guy who has to decipher it is not a fun job and gives you perspective on early technology choices. I've read enough discourse on HN re htmx to recognize people seeing it as an adequate solution for serious business usecases because they don't grasp the natural evolution in demands for complexity and interactivity in browser UIs. People love downplaying why more serious JS frameworks are adopted in the first place then find themselves in situations that need it but try to pretend they can just force it on primitive "simple" libraries, as we saw with jquery ad nauseam. Or more likely they leave their mess for the next developer to do the job properly from scratch.
    - pphysch 3y ago
      Every framework or library can be abused, but as a fellow software janitor I feel much better if the mess consists of just HTML templates and endpoints, rather than insane JS/TS/TSX build chains with invalid NPM dependency graphs (or a WordPress monstrosity). One of the benefits of HTMX is that it doesn't add many abstractions, it primarily builds off existing ones. A HTMX dev must understand the basics of HTTP and the DOM, and not much else, to be functional.
  - egeozcan 3y ago
    All your endpoints are delivering partial HTML instead of JSON and you can switch to, say, React for your next feature? I mean, you technically can, but for that amount of work and/or friction you can pretty much go between any 2 frameworks.
    - pphysch 3y ago
      There is nothing preventing you from having new endpoints serve frontend JSON, or from refactoring select endpoints away from HTMX. If you are refactoring everything because a small subset of features didn't fit the HTMX glove, that's an engineering management failure.
      - egeozcan 3y ago
        You can say the same for the conversion between any 2 frontend frameworks, or even wordpress (you can just add another php file and do whatever next to your existing stuff), what's the special thing about htmx here?

dmix 3y ago

If you think this analogy is about frameworks vs libraries you missed the point. It's the exact sort of technology option that is simple and accessible on the surface which is why someone inexperienced would adopt it in the early days. Then requirements naturally evolve and it gets shoehorned into ever more complex situations it was never intended for. I'm speaking from experience and anyone who has worked in web app dev / JS for any length of time can see this coming from a mile away. The mountain of jQuery libraries alone should be enough but in the history of the internet WordPress is the classic cliché example of a simple technology that frequently gets abused beyond its original design. If your project is small and niche then obviously this critique isn't relevant. Nor is it dismissing the utility of htmx.

pphysch 3y ago
Then you need to explain it better. There is nothing wrong with offering simple solutions. The problem with WordPress is that you can't just stop using it and painlessly swap to a more powerful framework/platform. You can really dig yourself into a hole. This doesn't apply to HTMX.
- dmix 3y ago
  You must not work on frontend because I've seen plenty of "simple" libraries exactly like htmx adopted and turned into monsters that power entire SaaS products the same way WordPress is turned into pseudo custom Web apps by non-programmers countess times. Being the guy who has to decipher it is not a fun job and gives you perspective on early technology choices. I've read enough discourse on HN re htmx to recognize people seeing it as an adequate solution for serious business usecases because they don't grasp the natural evolution in demands for complexity and interactivity in browser UIs. People love downplaying why more serious JS frameworks are adopted in the first place then find themselves in situations that need it but try to pretend they can just force it on primitive "simple" libraries, as we saw with jquery ad nauseam. Or more likely they leave their mess for the next developer to do the job properly from scratch.
  - pphysch 3y ago
    Every framework or library can be abused, but as a fellow software janitor I feel much better if the mess consists of just HTML templates and endpoints, rather than insane JS/TS/TSX build chains with invalid NPM dependency graphs (or a WordPress monstrosity). One of the benefits of HTMX is that it doesn't add many abstractions, it primarily builds off existing ones. A HTMX dev must understand the basics of HTTP and the DOM, and not much else, to be functional.
- egeozcan 3y ago
  All your endpoints are delivering partial HTML instead of JSON and you can switch to, say, React for your next feature? I mean, you technically can, but for that amount of work and/or friction you can pretty much go between any 2 frameworks.
  - pphysch 3y ago
    There is nothing preventing you from having new endpoints serve frontend JSON, or from refactoring select endpoints away from HTMX. If you are refactoring everything because a small subset of features didn't fit the HTMX glove, that's an engineering management failure.
    - egeozcan 3y ago
      You can say the same for the conversion between any 2 frontend frameworks, or even wordpress (you can just add another php file and do whatever next to your existing stuff), what's the special thing about htmx here?