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It's not that I avoid JavaScript, it's that I want my work to be accessible to someone without JS as a requirement, for whatever reason they may be in that stat

It's not that I avoid JavaScript, it's that I want my work to be accessible to someone without JS as a requirement, for whatever reason they may be in that state and configuration, whether by choice or not. I write plenty of JS (12% of my biggest project, according to GitHub), but it's added onto HTML in such a way that the HTML still works for: * a security-minded person who has it turned off in their browser, * a user of a browser without JS support, such as Links, Lynx, w3m, Dillo, * someone with an older device using NoScript for performance reasons, * someone with a slow network connection who can't load the included library, * a server operator who chooses to disable JS rendering/injection and serve plan HTML, such as the website for a Bitcoin conference, * another scenario I haven't even thought of or imagined yet. My conscience as a developer and enabler of information access just does not allow me to write off all these people as undeserving of accessing my websites. You may feel differently, and I think that is OK, too...

unmole 3y ago
I get what you're saying but I the context of the discussion, Htmx requires JavaScript, doesn't it?
chatmasta 3y ago
Every site I build works with JavaScript disabled. I use Next.js with server side rendering so that the initial page load is an accessible HTML document that is progressively enhanced for those with JS enabled during hydration by adding interactivity and smooth client side page transitions without full page reloads. None of this is possible with HTMX if the user has JavaScript disabled. The first step to using HTMX is to import a JavaScript file from a CDN, and none of the features for partial page replacement will work without it. Whereas with Next.js, with JavaScript disabled, a Link will revert to a full page load where the next page is rendered on the server. It will be progressively enhanced to what appears to be a partial page load by using the same JavaScript that would render the full page on the server to instead render it on the client starting from the current state of the DOM.
- yawaramin 3y ago
  > None of this is possible with HTMX if the user has JavaScript disabled. The first step to using HTMX is to import a JavaScript file from a CDN, and none of the features for partial page replacement will work without it. Umm, progressive enhancement is a general concept that can be applied to any stack, not just Next.js. With htmx we can just use good old anchor and form tags to fall back to full-page loads if JavaScript is disabled. In fact it makes it more obvious because usually those are the tags we're using even with htmx and JavaScript enabled.
  - chatmasta 3y ago
    How do you do that if your backend is setup to respond to requests with partial content? You now need to make sure your backend can render both the full page and also individual components of it. That's not functionality that's provided by HTMX itself.
    - yawaramin 3y ago
      It's fairly easy. Htmx sends an `HX-Request: true` header with all requests. You can check for the presence of this header and have an if/else in your handler to render a partial or a full page. Or if you want to enable caching you can configure the `Accept` header with a customized content type like `text/html;hx=1`. That way you can set a response header `Vary: Accept` to ensure that caching is correct.

unmole 3y ago

I get what you're saying but I the context of the discussion, Htmx requires JavaScript, doesn't it?

chatmasta 3y ago

Every site I build works with JavaScript disabled. I use Next.js with server side rendering so that the initial page load is an accessible HTML document that is progressively enhanced for those with JS enabled during hydration by adding interactivity and smooth client side page transitions without full page reloads. None of this is possible with HTMX if the user has JavaScript disabled. The first step to using HTMX is to import a JavaScript file from a CDN, and none of the features for partial page replacement will work without it. Whereas with Next.js, with JavaScript disabled, a Link will revert to a full page load where the next page is rendered on the server. It will be progressively enhanced to what appears to be a partial page load by using the same JavaScript that would render the full page on the server to instead render it on the client starting from the current state of the DOM.

yawaramin 3y ago
> None of this is possible with HTMX if the user has JavaScript disabled. The first step to using HTMX is to import a JavaScript file from a CDN, and none of the features for partial page replacement will work without it. Umm, progressive enhancement is a general concept that can be applied to any stack, not just Next.js. With htmx we can just use good old anchor and form tags to fall back to full-page loads if JavaScript is disabled. In fact it makes it more obvious because usually those are the tags we're using even with htmx and JavaScript enabled.
- chatmasta 3y ago
  How do you do that if your backend is setup to respond to requests with partial content? You now need to make sure your backend can render both the full page and also individual components of it. That's not functionality that's provided by HTMX itself.
  - yawaramin 3y ago
    It's fairly easy. Htmx sends an `HX-Request: true` header with all requests. You can check for the presence of this header and have an if/else in your handler to render a partial or a full page. Or if you want to enable caching you can configure the `Accept` header with a customized content type like `text/html;hx=1`. That way you can set a response header `Vary: Accept` to ensure that caching is correct.