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This comment reminds me of people warning about the perils of communism by posting photos of empty store shelves during the pandemic. In other words they used a

This comment reminds me of people warning about the perils of communism by posting photos of empty store shelves during the pandemic. In other words they used a failure of capitalism to exemplify communism. If American hegemony brings peace, why are you using an example where there this supposed peace effect obviously failed? American hegemony did not prevent the Russian invasion into Ukraine as we all know. It is not an example of a world without American hegemony, it is clearly and example of the world with American hegemony.

philwelch 3y ago
Russia invaded Ukraine because the US wasn’t being hegemonic enough. The first invasion in 2014 happened under a dovish, non-interventionist president elected due to public dissatisfaction with his interventionist predecessor. That administration refused to send aid to Ukraine at all, a policy that has been gradually reversed by the two successive administrations, then reversed more dramatically after the second invasion in 2022. Had the US taken the crisis more seriously, it could have likely deterred the 2022 invasion entirely. If you want an example of the world with American hegemony, consider that the longest sustained period of peace in Western European history began when Western Europe was first occupied by American troops in 1945.
- runarberg 3y ago
  Surely you must realize the fallacy of your argument. I can apply this logic to literally everything. - X means we don’t have Y. - But a Y just happened. - It’s because we didn’t have enough X. But also you are wrong on you historic counts here. Western Europe hasn’t been entirely peaceful since 1945. First of all, Europe had colonies and colonial warfare well into the 1980s, colonial wars include Angola, Algeria, Kenya, the Falkland Islands and many more. Second many countries were dictatorship in Western Europe, including Spain, Portugal and Italy. There was a war in Cyprus, civil war in Northern Ireland, as well as terrorist insurgencies in Germany and Spain well into the 90s and 2000s. Neither did USA have hegemony in Western Europe during this period. USSRs influence spread across the continent. There were actually two Germanies until the late 1980s, there still are two Cypruses (despite both Turkey and Greece being NATO members), Communist and Socialist parties remained popular and quite often as part of coalition governments e.g. in Scandinavia, France, Belgium, etc.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    > Surely you must realize the fallacy of your argument. I can apply this logic to literally everything. Well, you would need to analyze the specific facts of the situation to see if it backed up the argument first, which I did. > Western Europe hasn’t been entirely peaceful since 1945. First of all, Europe had colonies and colonial warfare well into the 1980s, in places like Angola and Algeria. Angola and Algeria aren’t in Europe. > Second many countries were dictatorship in Western Europe, including Spain, Portugal and Italy. They still didn’t go to war with each other. > There were civil wars in Northern Ireland as well as terrorist insurgencies in Germany and Spain well into the 90s and 2000s. I never claimed the US was able to eradicate domestic terrorism, only wars between countries. Western Europe hadn’t had a war between countries since 1945, which is the longest stretch since probably the fall of Rome. > There were actually two Germanies until the late 1980s Yes, that’s why I specified “Western Europe”; Eastern Europe was under Soviet hegemony.
    - runarberg 3y ago
      What do you call the War in Cyprus and the Civil War in Northern Ireland? Turkey and Greece are two separate countries involved in territorial war of Cyprus (sometimes considered Western Europe). UK and Ireland are also two separate countries definitely inside Western Europe. Algeria and Angola were an integral part of France and Portugal respectively, just like Lyon and Lisbon. To the European powers, these were wars inside western European countries. I find your specification of "War" and "Western Europe" awfully convenient. For example USA had hegemony over both the UK and Argentina, yet the latter invaded a territory of the former, but you are still correct because the Falkland Island aren’t in Europe. If history doesn’t fit your narrative, you can simply narrow the scope until it fits. This is the problem with grand historic theories, they always just fit, but only after being hammered to the "correct" shape.
      - philwelch 3y ago
        > Turkey and Greece are two separate countries involved in territorial war of Cyprus (sometimes considered Western Europe). If you want to consider Turkey part of Western Europe that’s up to you. > UK and Ireland are also two separate countries The UK was not at war with the Republic of Ireland; it was at war with domestic terrorists inside Northern Ireland. > I find your specification of "War" and "Western Europe" awfully convenient. If that’s true, I’m sure it’ll be just as easy for you to find another 78 year period of history in which no two sovereign Western European polities went to war with one another. In fact, the whole reason I pointed it out is because the western half of Europe had been interminably war-torn for centuries. You’re talking about colonial wars in Angola and IRA terrorists; I’m talking about breaking the centuries-long cycle of Anglo-German-French wars that stretches into medieval times. > For example USA had hegemony over both the UK and Argentina We did? That’s news to me.

philwelch 3y ago

Russia invaded Ukraine because the US wasn’t being hegemonic enough. The first invasion in 2014 happened under a dovish, non-interventionist president elected due to public dissatisfaction with his interventionist predecessor. That administration refused to send aid to Ukraine at all, a policy that has been gradually reversed by the two successive administrations, then reversed more dramatically after the second invasion in 2022. Had the US taken the crisis more seriously, it could have likely deterred the 2022 invasion entirely. If you want an example of the world with American hegemony, consider that the longest sustained period of peace in Western European history began when Western Europe was first occupied by American troops in 1945.

runarberg 3y ago
Surely you must realize the fallacy of your argument. I can apply this logic to literally everything. - X means we don’t have Y. - But a Y just happened. - It’s because we didn’t have enough X. But also you are wrong on you historic counts here. Western Europe hasn’t been entirely peaceful since 1945. First of all, Europe had colonies and colonial warfare well into the 1980s, colonial wars include Angola, Algeria, Kenya, the Falkland Islands and many more. Second many countries were dictatorship in Western Europe, including Spain, Portugal and Italy. There was a war in Cyprus, civil war in Northern Ireland, as well as terrorist insurgencies in Germany and Spain well into the 90s and 2000s. Neither did USA have hegemony in Western Europe during this period. USSRs influence spread across the continent. There were actually two Germanies until the late 1980s, there still are two Cypruses (despite both Turkey and Greece being NATO members), Communist and Socialist parties remained popular and quite often as part of coalition governments e.g. in Scandinavia, France, Belgium, etc.
- philwelch 3y ago
  > Surely you must realize the fallacy of your argument. I can apply this logic to literally everything. Well, you would need to analyze the specific facts of the situation to see if it backed up the argument first, which I did. > Western Europe hasn’t been entirely peaceful since 1945. First of all, Europe had colonies and colonial warfare well into the 1980s, in places like Angola and Algeria. Angola and Algeria aren’t in Europe. > Second many countries were dictatorship in Western Europe, including Spain, Portugal and Italy. They still didn’t go to war with each other. > There were civil wars in Northern Ireland as well as terrorist insurgencies in Germany and Spain well into the 90s and 2000s. I never claimed the US was able to eradicate domestic terrorism, only wars between countries. Western Europe hadn’t had a war between countries since 1945, which is the longest stretch since probably the fall of Rome. > There were actually two Germanies until the late 1980s Yes, that’s why I specified “Western Europe”; Eastern Europe was under Soviet hegemony.
  - runarberg 3y ago
    What do you call the War in Cyprus and the Civil War in Northern Ireland? Turkey and Greece are two separate countries involved in territorial war of Cyprus (sometimes considered Western Europe). UK and Ireland are also two separate countries definitely inside Western Europe. Algeria and Angola were an integral part of France and Portugal respectively, just like Lyon and Lisbon. To the European powers, these were wars inside western European countries. I find your specification of "War" and "Western Europe" awfully convenient. For example USA had hegemony over both the UK and Argentina, yet the latter invaded a territory of the former, but you are still correct because the Falkland Island aren’t in Europe. If history doesn’t fit your narrative, you can simply narrow the scope until it fits. This is the problem with grand historic theories, they always just fit, but only after being hammered to the "correct" shape.
    - philwelch 3y ago
      > Turkey and Greece are two separate countries involved in territorial war of Cyprus (sometimes considered Western Europe). If you want to consider Turkey part of Western Europe that’s up to you. > UK and Ireland are also two separate countries The UK was not at war with the Republic of Ireland; it was at war with domestic terrorists inside Northern Ireland. > I find your specification of "War" and "Western Europe" awfully convenient. If that’s true, I’m sure it’ll be just as easy for you to find another 78 year period of history in which no two sovereign Western European polities went to war with one another. In fact, the whole reason I pointed it out is because the western half of Europe had been interminably war-torn for centuries. You’re talking about colonial wars in Angola and IRA terrorists; I’m talking about breaking the centuries-long cycle of Anglo-German-French wars that stretches into medieval times. > For example USA had hegemony over both the UK and Argentina We did? That’s news to me.