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The statement that the war was unprovoked is proving to be less durable by the day. https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-provoked-and-why

The statement that the war was unprovoked is proving to be less durable by the day. https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-provoked-and-why-that-matters-if-we-want-peace https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-...

_kbh_ 3y ago
> The statement that the war was unprovoked is proving to be less durable by the day. https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-provoked-and-why-that-matters-if-we-want-peace https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-... This article makes no sense what so ever, and repeats multiple Russian talking points including a often included comment about NATO expansion That comment and supposed promise never happened in the way it is presented, I’d suspect someone who is familiar with this situation to know that. That the author of that _opinion_ doesn’t know that is telling of his actual familiarity with the situation. The entire thing reads like Russian propaganda and reads like it’s trying to dissuade western weapons to Ukraine, a key Russian goal.
- kornhole 3y ago
  Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition. Gorbachev himself said that it never happened in that way. It’s worrying that someone who is meant to be be a ‘expert’ in this are gets such a key fact wrong, what else is wrong in that article?. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/amp/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...
    - kornhole 3y ago
      It is all described here in greater detail. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017... The article you cite from the military think tank says clearly that Gorbachev was given assurances. Military think tanks are not generally valid or good sources for such topics.
      - _kbh_ 3y ago
        Gorbachev himself is the source of my article, that is a primary source. You are using a secondary source that talks about the primary source to try and discredit the primary source itself. This doesn’t work and is entirely an underhanded method to try and present non factual information as true. Once again the fact that Sachs does not know this from a primary source is worrying, what else is he entirely unaware of the reality around the situation?.
        kornhole 3y ago
        We may be splitting hairs about signed agreements and assurances. Yes there are no signed agreements. One interview with the dead Gorbachev is a source, but assurances were given by Western leaders to other people in Russia as well which are documented. That aside, what is important is Russia was under the understanding that NATO would not expand into the former Soviet bloc countries right up to its border and create a security threat which we are seeing now play out. If you find something that Sachs got wrong, I would love to hear it.
        _kbh_ 3y ago
        > We may be splitting hairs about signed agreements and assurances. None exist, unlike the assurance that Russia would never invade Ukraine. > Yes there are no signed agreements. Of course there aren't cause it never happened, and was never promised. > One interview with the dead Gorbachev is a source, but assurances were given by Western leaders to other people in Russia as well which are documented. There were never any real agreements, to anyone in any way shape or form that constituted and actual agreement that was meant to be enforced, the leader of the country himself has said that already. > That aside, what is important is Russia was under the understanding that NATO would not expand into the former Soviet bloc countries right up to its border and create a security threat which we are seeing now play out. No they weren't their leader literally said he knew that wasn't the guarantee, this is more Putin invented fiction to just his imperialistic war of conquest. > If you find something that Sachs got wrong, I would love to hear it. Here's an article that refutes everything he wrote. > https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1661857051725709314.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1661857051725709314.html Here's another > https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2023/03/20/open-letter-to-jeffrey-sachs-on-the-russia-ukraine-war/ https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2023/03/20/open-letter-to-jeffrey... By the way, I looked up Jeffery Sachs cause you seem to love him as a source, so I googled him, turns out he's appeared on Russian propaganda shows hosted by Vladimir Solovyov. Now why would Sachs go on a show that just pure Russian propaganda I wonder?.

_kbh_ 3y ago

> The statement that the war was unprovoked is proving to be less durable by the day. https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-provoked-and-why-that-matters-if-we-want-peace https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-... This article makes no sense what so ever, and repeats multiple Russian talking points including a often included comment about NATO expansion That comment and supposed promise never happened in the way it is presented, I’d suspect someone who is familiar with this situation to know that. That the author of that _opinion_ doesn’t know that is telling of his actual familiarity with the situation. The entire thing reads like Russian propaganda and reads like it’s trying to dissuade western weapons to Ukraine, a key Russian goal.

kornhole 3y ago
Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition.
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition. Gorbachev himself said that it never happened in that way. It’s worrying that someone who is meant to be be a ‘expert’ in this are gets such a key fact wrong, what else is wrong in that article?. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/amp/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...
  - kornhole 3y ago
    It is all described here in greater detail. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017... The article you cite from the military think tank says clearly that Gorbachev was given assurances. Military think tanks are not generally valid or good sources for such topics.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      Gorbachev himself is the source of my article, that is a primary source. You are using a secondary source that talks about the primary source to try and discredit the primary source itself. This doesn’t work and is entirely an underhanded method to try and present non factual information as true. Once again the fact that Sachs does not know this from a primary source is worrying, what else is he entirely unaware of the reality around the situation?.
      - kornhole 3y ago
        We may be splitting hairs about signed agreements and assurances. Yes there are no signed agreements. One interview with the dead Gorbachev is a source, but assurances were given by Western leaders to other people in Russia as well which are documented. That aside, what is important is Russia was under the understanding that NATO would not expand into the former Soviet bloc countries right up to its border and create a security threat which we are seeing now play out. If you find something that Sachs got wrong, I would love to hear it.
        _kbh_ 3y ago
        > We may be splitting hairs about signed agreements and assurances. None exist, unlike the assurance that Russia would never invade Ukraine. > Yes there are no signed agreements. Of course there aren't cause it never happened, and was never promised. > One interview with the dead Gorbachev is a source, but assurances were given by Western leaders to other people in Russia as well which are documented. There were never any real agreements, to anyone in any way shape or form that constituted and actual agreement that was meant to be enforced, the leader of the country himself has said that already. > That aside, what is important is Russia was under the understanding that NATO would not expand into the former Soviet bloc countries right up to its border and create a security threat which we are seeing now play out. No they weren't their leader literally said he knew that wasn't the guarantee, this is more Putin invented fiction to just his imperialistic war of conquest. > If you find something that Sachs got wrong, I would love to hear it. Here's an article that refutes everything he wrote. > https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1661857051725709314.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1661857051725709314.html Here's another > https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2023/03/20/open-letter-to-jeffrey-sachs-on-the-russia-ukraine-war/ https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2023/03/20/open-letter-to-jeffrey... By the way, I looked up Jeffery Sachs cause you seem to love him as a source, so I googled him, turns out he's appeared on Russian propaganda shows hosted by Vladimir Solovyov. Now why would Sachs go on a show that just pure Russian propaganda I wonder?.