3 ms·

> As a side note, I've never heard of confusing the pedals as an issue for ANY car Then you haven't been paying attention around the Toyota acceleration scanda

by bsder 3y ago

> As a side note, I've never heard of confusing the pedals as an issue for ANY car Then you haven't been paying attention around the Toyota acceleration scandal. Pedal confusion is remarkably common when you buy a new car/use a rental (your feet rely on muscle memory), and it's not uncommon in the elderly. Most of the Toyota unintended acceleration fits the statistical profile of pedal confusion in the elderly. However, what Toyota really got whacked for is that when people pulled their software for audit, the software was a disaster and didn't even adhere to basic standards. At that point, it was cheaper for Toyota to just admit fault than go through with a whole lot of court cases that they were likely to lose once a jury got involved.

dmbche 3y ago
Oh wow! Thanks for the heads up. When skimming about Toyota, I'm getting unsafe floor mats and sticky pedals as the cause of acceleration, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough. The other commenter also brought up that it's a common issue. Guess I'm feeling less safe on the road then ever - and I'll get a manual to boot
- jjoonathan 3y ago
  I've definitely had a few instances (over a few decades of driving) when I lost confidence in my knowledge of which pedal was which. Rote knowledge is tricky that way. Fortunately, I was always able to safely test. I was never confidently incorrect, but I can see it from here. It's a scary thought.
- dendrite9 3y ago
  Another one crash that I think about semi often was a bus crash in Queens that killed 3 people where the bus was doing 60 in a 30 and blew a red light. The cause was suspected to be a thermos wedged under the brake pedal and pushing on the gas. It seems like a dumb thing to think about sometimes, but I try to be aware of that risk. https://www.core77.com/posts/84534/How-a-Commuter-Thermos-May-Have-Caused-a-Deadly-Accident-Speeding-the-Vehicle-Up-and-Preventing-Braking https://www.core77.com/posts/84534/How-a-Commuter-Thermos-Ma... https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/ny-metro-dropped-thermos-fatal-bus-crash-20190221-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/ny-metro-dropped...
- xenadu02 3y ago
  If memory serves the main ECU control loop didn't check for stack overflows so excessive recursion could smash the global variables on the stack and accidentally turn off any number of ECU tasks - including the one responsible for monitoring the accelerator and brake. The ECU module includes watchdog support that runs on another chip or core (can't recall) that was intended to do backup monitoring of the main ECU - and especially it should have watched the brake pedal and of the brake was held for a minimum time it would override the ECU and force the accelerator to zero. However that function did not work reliably, making the watchdog useless. The code itself was poorly structured, with lots of critical things done in one big "god" task that if accidentally disabled by a single bool flip in RAM would ultimately disable many safety critical functions. Normally you'd have multiple copies of such data structures that must agree, split the code up into separate isolated tasks so a failure of one doesn't stop the others, and implement basic stack overflow protection which again IIRC was available on the toolchain they were using but was not enabled. The watchdog problems are especially inexcusable for a safety critical system.
bombolo 3y ago
Friend of mine works for a different well known car maker and tells me the software is exactly like that. How many people will have to die before governments impose the software to be submitted for approval?

by bsder 3y ago

dmbche 3y ago

Oh wow! Thanks for the heads up. When skimming about Toyota, I'm getting unsafe floor mats and sticky pedals as the cause of acceleration, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough. The other commenter also brought up that it's a common issue. Guess I'm feeling less safe on the road then ever - and I'll get a manual to boot

jjoonathan 3y ago
I've definitely had a few instances (over a few decades of driving) when I lost confidence in my knowledge of which pedal was which. Rote knowledge is tricky that way. Fortunately, I was always able to safely test. I was never confidently incorrect, but I can see it from here. It's a scary thought.
dendrite9 3y ago
Another one crash that I think about semi often was a bus crash in Queens that killed 3 people where the bus was doing 60 in a 30 and blew a red light. The cause was suspected to be a thermos wedged under the brake pedal and pushing on the gas. It seems like a dumb thing to think about sometimes, but I try to be aware of that risk. https://www.core77.com/posts/84534/How-a-Commuter-Thermos-May-Have-Caused-a-Deadly-Accident-Speeding-the-Vehicle-Up-and-Preventing-Braking https://www.core77.com/posts/84534/How-a-Commuter-Thermos-Ma... https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/ny-metro-dropped-thermos-fatal-bus-crash-20190221-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/ny-metro-dropped...
xenadu02 3y ago
If memory serves the main ECU control loop didn't check for stack overflows so excessive recursion could smash the global variables on the stack and accidentally turn off any number of ECU tasks - including the one responsible for monitoring the accelerator and brake. The ECU module includes watchdog support that runs on another chip or core (can't recall) that was intended to do backup monitoring of the main ECU - and especially it should have watched the brake pedal and of the brake was held for a minimum time it would override the ECU and force the accelerator to zero. However that function did not work reliably, making the watchdog useless. The code itself was poorly structured, with lots of critical things done in one big "god" task that if accidentally disabled by a single bool flip in RAM would ultimately disable many safety critical functions. Normally you'd have multiple copies of such data structures that must agree, split the code up into separate isolated tasks so a failure of one doesn't stop the others, and implement basic stack overflow protection which again IIRC was available on the toolchain they were using but was not enabled. The watchdog problems are especially inexcusable for a safety critical system.

bombolo 3y ago

Friend of mine works for a different well known car maker and tells me the software is exactly like that. How many people will have to die before governments impose the software to be submitted for approval?