5 ms·

Tesla self-driving is better than a bad human driver. There are loads of bad human drivers on the road. Someone has to be liable, but I don't really care if it

Tesla self-driving is better than a bad human driver. There are loads of bad human drivers on the road. Someone has to be liable, but I don't really care if it falls to Musk or a Musk simp. I do care if we kick yet another key technology out of the US only to have to rent it back years later when someone else picks up the torch. Let's not do that.

vgt 3y ago
I am not sure I agree with your assessment. Last time I was in a FSD Tesla, it repeatedly tried to run red lights and didn't know how to merge lanes on a freeway...
- jjoonathan 3y ago
  I don't own one, but I watch a video on youtube every time one of these threads comes around and it seems to be pretty good these days. Your examples are bad. People do both of those things all the time.
  - plagiarist 3y ago
    This is delusional. "It's fine because I watched some videos and some irresponsible people often drive recklessly anyway."
    - jjoonathan 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - Spooky23 3y ago
        NHSTA is infected by the woke virus. Elon knows what you need. If your car crashes into a wall or whatever, it’s probably your fault anyway.
        jjoonathan 3y ago
        > I'll leave NHTSA to sort out the latter Reading comprehension at 0%.
  - birdyrooster 3y ago
    No, people do not do either of these all of the time… and neither does the Tesla. They exist in a continuum between murder-suicide and a lovely cruise along the coast. The idea here is that we have insufficient data to see just how flagrant of assholes Tesla FSD users are.
  - itsoktocry 3y ago
    >I watch a video on youtube every time... survivorship_bias_airplane.jpg Access to most of the latest versions of FSD were doled out on the basis of privilege. What do you think happened to people who post negative "reviews"?
    - jjoonathan 3y ago
      It has been open to the public for 6 months. https://electrek.co/2022/11/24/tesla-full-self-driving-beta-available-all-owners-north-america/ https://electrek.co/2022/11/24/tesla-full-self-driving-beta-...
- rickyc091 3y ago
  Tesla has four modes of "self driving"--Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot, FSD, FSD Beta. AP/EAP will run red lights and can't merge lanes on a freeway. FSD will stop for lights/stop signs, but that's about it. FSD Beta is what Tesla is typically known for and what many YouTube videos are showing. FSD Beta will stop at red lights and merge into freeways. Most people use FSD interchangeably, but they are not the same thing.
harles 3y ago
> Tesla self-driving is better than a bad human driver. Genuine question: what evidence is there of this?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- birdyrooster 3y ago
  I think Elon has a jump cut video of it somewhere
- ilyt 3y ago
  I mean I'd imagine the evidence being pretty simple, put someone that can't drive behind the wheel, boom, worse than tesla
stilist 3y ago
Is it actually better than a bad human driver? (And what’s your metric for ‘bad’ — tired, drunk, distracted, a teenager who just got their license but didn’t actually practice enough?) Because I’ve watched enough videos of people having to quickly override Full Self-Driving in ordinary situations that I’m really skeptical that it’s better than most drivers. I’d be willing to say that in practice FSD usage is small enough to not be a serious threat to public safety, but I haven’t seen evidence that it’s better than a human.
- jjoonathan 3y ago
  Every time one of these threads come around I search youtube for a FSD video and qualitatively evaluate what comes up. If you google FSD fail compilation, you'll get a FSD fail compilation. You can do the same for humans.
  - runarberg 3y ago
    I think your parent’s question is completely justified by having anecdotes. They aren’t stating a fact, they are raising doubts of a claim. One does not need scientific evidence to raise doubts about a claim which it self has limited—and sometimes no—evidence behind it. Repeated real world examples are sufficient for such doubts. Now if FSD proponents want to stop people from having doubts, they need to run several experiments in very diverse settings (as diverse as real world driving). In the absence of sufficient evidence, a skeptic is completely justified.
  - advael 3y ago
    And if there's a video of FSD that isn't a "fail compilation", it was probably filmed and/or uploaded because it showed off the FSD doing well, and may even be subject to, effectively, the editorial review of google (whether via algorithms or moderators), which could easily depend on the size of google's advertising relationship with tesla on a given day (or how heavily they want to push the safety of self-driving cars, a business they are also in) There's so much bias at every step of the process of looking up youtube videos that it lends essentially no credibility to any claim in any direction on this matter
fathyb 3y ago
> Tesla self-driving is better than a bad human driver. I have big doubts regarding this claim. I could not find any source that is not Tesla. Given that TFA is about Tesla deceiving and hiding information from customers, do you have any source that isn't Tesla or Musk?
squarefoot 3y ago
Can you be absolutely certain that self driving can deal safely with every possible road irregularities, obstacles, bad, incomplete, damaged or tampered road signs, and other unpredictable events? Self driving on public roads done right is damn hard; probably harder than sending a manned but completely automated spaceship to Mars and back.
- jjoonathan 3y ago
  Yeah, it's a hard problem, but researchers are smart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRdUjrOnKdw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRdUjrOnKdw and human drivers do not set an infinitely high bar.
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  That's not the right question to ask. The right question to ask is, "Can self-driving tech kill fewer than 30,000 people a year, as humans do now?" If you kill the R&D goose or smother it in overregulation, more people will die.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Or if the R&D phase kills so many people the public loses faith in the whole idea ... then you get to wait a generation for people to forget
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      R&D would have to be killing 30,000*%oftheirvehicles per year.
      - paulryanrogers 3y ago
        We're talking about perception. Regardless, Tesla won't release the data per mile driven and seems to be dodging reporting regulations -- if not daring regulators to respond. Feels to me like amateurs (backed by a small army) confidently building bridges and daring the community to try and stop them. (Except Tesla's army are fan boys, lobbyists, and lawyers.) So basically speed running a millennium of civil engineering, except ignoring the more expensive safety controls; like LIDAR.

vgt 3y ago

I am not sure I agree with your assessment. Last time I was in a FSD Tesla, it repeatedly tried to run red lights and didn't know how to merge lanes on a freeway...

jjoonathan 3y ago
I don't own one, but I watch a video on youtube every time one of these threads comes around and it seems to be pretty good these days. Your examples are bad. People do both of those things all the time.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  This is delusional. "It's fine because I watched some videos and some irresponsible people often drive recklessly anyway."
  - jjoonathan 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Spooky23 3y ago
      NHSTA is infected by the woke virus. Elon knows what you need. If your car crashes into a wall or whatever, it’s probably your fault anyway.
      - jjoonathan 3y ago
        > I'll leave NHTSA to sort out the latter Reading comprehension at 0%.
- birdyrooster 3y ago
  No, people do not do either of these all of the time… and neither does the Tesla. They exist in a continuum between murder-suicide and a lovely cruise along the coast. The idea here is that we have insufficient data to see just how flagrant of assholes Tesla FSD users are.
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >I watch a video on youtube every time... survivorship_bias_airplane.jpg Access to most of the latest versions of FSD were doled out on the basis of privilege. What do you think happened to people who post negative "reviews"?
  - jjoonathan 3y ago
    It has been open to the public for 6 months. https://electrek.co/2022/11/24/tesla-full-self-driving-beta-available-all-owners-north-america/ https://electrek.co/2022/11/24/tesla-full-self-driving-beta-...
rickyc091 3y ago
Tesla has four modes of "self driving"--Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot, FSD, FSD Beta. AP/EAP will run red lights and can't merge lanes on a freeway. FSD will stop for lights/stop signs, but that's about it. FSD Beta is what Tesla is typically known for and what many YouTube videos are showing. FSD Beta will stop at red lights and merge into freeways. Most people use FSD interchangeably, but they are not the same thing.

harles 3y ago

> Tesla self-driving is better than a bad human driver. Genuine question: what evidence is there of this?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
birdyrooster 3y ago
I think Elon has a jump cut video of it somewhere
ilyt 3y ago
I mean I'd imagine the evidence being pretty simple, put someone that can't drive behind the wheel, boom, worse than tesla

stilist 3y ago

Is it actually better than a bad human driver? (And what’s your metric for ‘bad’ — tired, drunk, distracted, a teenager who just got their license but didn’t actually practice enough?) Because I’ve watched enough videos of people having to quickly override Full Self-Driving in ordinary situations that I’m really skeptical that it’s better than most drivers. I’d be willing to say that in practice FSD usage is small enough to not be a serious threat to public safety, but I haven’t seen evidence that it’s better than a human.

jjoonathan 3y ago
Every time one of these threads come around I search youtube for a FSD video and qualitatively evaluate what comes up. If you google FSD fail compilation, you'll get a FSD fail compilation. You can do the same for humans.
- runarberg 3y ago
  I think your parent’s question is completely justified by having anecdotes. They aren’t stating a fact, they are raising doubts of a claim. One does not need scientific evidence to raise doubts about a claim which it self has limited—and sometimes no—evidence behind it. Repeated real world examples are sufficient for such doubts. Now if FSD proponents want to stop people from having doubts, they need to run several experiments in very diverse settings (as diverse as real world driving). In the absence of sufficient evidence, a skeptic is completely justified.
- advael 3y ago
  And if there's a video of FSD that isn't a "fail compilation", it was probably filmed and/or uploaded because it showed off the FSD doing well, and may even be subject to, effectively, the editorial review of google (whether via algorithms or moderators), which could easily depend on the size of google's advertising relationship with tesla on a given day (or how heavily they want to push the safety of self-driving cars, a business they are also in) There's so much bias at every step of the process of looking up youtube videos that it lends essentially no credibility to any claim in any direction on this matter

fathyb 3y ago

> Tesla self-driving is better than a bad human driver. I have big doubts regarding this claim. I could not find any source that is not Tesla. Given that TFA is about Tesla deceiving and hiding information from customers, do you have any source that isn't Tesla or Musk?

squarefoot 3y ago

Can you be absolutely certain that self driving can deal safely with every possible road irregularities, obstacles, bad, incomplete, damaged or tampered road signs, and other unpredictable events? Self driving on public roads done right is damn hard; probably harder than sending a manned but completely automated spaceship to Mars and back.

jjoonathan 3y ago
Yeah, it's a hard problem, but researchers are smart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRdUjrOnKdw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRdUjrOnKdw and human drivers do not set an infinitely high bar.
CamperBob2 3y ago
That's not the right question to ask. The right question to ask is, "Can self-driving tech kill fewer than 30,000 people a year, as humans do now?" If you kill the R&D goose or smother it in overregulation, more people will die.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Or if the R&D phase kills so many people the public loses faith in the whole idea ... then you get to wait a generation for people to forget
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    R&D would have to be killing 30,000*%oftheirvehicles per year.
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      We're talking about perception. Regardless, Tesla won't release the data per mile driven and seems to be dodging reporting regulations -- if not daring regulators to respond. Feels to me like amateurs (backed by a small army) confidently building bridges and daring the community to try and stop them. (Except Tesla's army are fan boys, lobbyists, and lawyers.) So basically speed running a millennium of civil engineering, except ignoring the more expensive safety controls; like LIDAR.