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The Ukraine has its own rich history of dishonesty. The first day of war: Ukraine says that Russian warship killed with missiles all Ukranian border guards on

by gdy 3y ago

The Ukraine has its own rich history of dishonesty. The first day of war: Ukraine says that Russian warship killed with missiles all Ukranian border guards on the Zmeiniy island. Everyone is shocked by this senseless cruelty. Russian MoD says that guards are taken prisoners. Nobody believes. Two weeks later: Ukrainian Defence Minister gives medals to the border guards safely returned to Kiev.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
maybe, maybe not. Two things are for sure, though: 1. there is no such thing as "The Ukraine" anymore, only Ukraine, as in the independent country with internationally recognized borders [including Crimea] 2. given russia's long history of dishonesty in their claims (e.g. 'we won't attack Ukraine, that's just western propaganda', 'we are the victims and not the aggressors', 'we aren't raping children in Ukraine'), the truth is, by default, most likely to be the opposite of what russia says (but of course, subject to dispute if russia actually has reliable verified evidence of their claims) again, it's simply the bayesian prior at this point; the null hypothesis
- gdy 3y ago
  What "maybe, maybe not"?
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    It means what you say might be true, or it might be false, but either way it has no bearing on russia's long history of dishonesty, and thus has no bearing on my comment indeed, whataboutism itself is a form of dishonest debate which was invented, and is used to distract from russia's long history of dishonesty (here for example). guess who invented it? russia, of course.
    - gdy 3y ago
      "say might be true, or it might be false" So you don't bother to google and check if the Ukraine has a habit of lying too, and prefer to believe anything coming from Kiev only because Russia says the opposite. The word 'whataboutism' is a form of dishonest debate and used to distract from critique of double standards. "guess who invented it? russia, of course." I'd say it was invented during Cold War by some American in search of rhetorical device to distract from their double standards.
      - _kbh_ 3y ago
        Theres no evidence it hit anything, other then that of the Russian government who has shown itself in this conflict that it is incapable of doing anything but lying. In fact people found where it was doing deployed and theres not even any scorch marks, everything points to the thousandeth Russian lie in this war more then anything else.
        gdy 3y ago
        As there are no evidence that any Kinzhal was intercepted.
        _kbh_ 3y ago
        The lack of any scorch marks or impact craters around or anywhere near the patriot sight is a pretty good indication it was intercepted. Same with the giant flashes in the sky.
        gdy 3y ago
        "The lack of any scorch marks" Even the US says there was 'minimal damage'. [0] There is no evidence to the number of Kinzhals launched and to the number of Kinzhals intercepted. [0] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-damage-ukraine/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-...
        3y ago

by gdy 3y ago

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago

maybe, maybe not. Two things are for sure, though: 1. there is no such thing as "The Ukraine" anymore, only Ukraine, as in the independent country with internationally recognized borders [including Crimea] 2. given russia's long history of dishonesty in their claims (e.g. 'we won't attack Ukraine, that's just western propaganda', 'we are the victims and not the aggressors', 'we aren't raping children in Ukraine'), the truth is, by default, most likely to be the opposite of what russia says (but of course, subject to dispute if russia actually has reliable verified evidence of their claims) again, it's simply the bayesian prior at this point; the null hypothesis

gdy 3y ago
What "maybe, maybe not"?
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  It means what you say might be true, or it might be false, but either way it has no bearing on russia's long history of dishonesty, and thus has no bearing on my comment indeed, whataboutism itself is a form of dishonest debate which was invented, and is used to distract from russia's long history of dishonesty (here for example). guess who invented it? russia, of course.
  - gdy 3y ago
    "say might be true, or it might be false" So you don't bother to google and check if the Ukraine has a habit of lying too, and prefer to believe anything coming from Kiev only because Russia says the opposite. The word 'whataboutism' is a form of dishonest debate and used to distract from critique of double standards. "guess who invented it? russia, of course." I'd say it was invented during Cold War by some American in search of rhetorical device to distract from their double standards.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      Theres no evidence it hit anything, other then that of the Russian government who has shown itself in this conflict that it is incapable of doing anything but lying. In fact people found where it was doing deployed and theres not even any scorch marks, everything points to the thousandeth Russian lie in this war more then anything else.
      - gdy 3y ago
        As there are no evidence that any Kinzhal was intercepted.
        _kbh_ 3y ago
        The lack of any scorch marks or impact craters around or anywhere near the patriot sight is a pretty good indication it was intercepted. Same with the giant flashes in the sky.
        gdy 3y ago
        "The lack of any scorch marks" Even the US says there was 'minimal damage'. [0] There is no evidence to the number of Kinzhals launched and to the number of Kinzhals intercepted. [0] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-damage-ukraine/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-...
        3y ago