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>"The official policy to deprive customers and victims of information as much as possible is shocking from the standpoint of being flagrantly, cynically custome

by nickff 3y ago

>"The official policy to deprive customers and victims of information as much as possible is shocking from the standpoint of being flagrantly, cynically customer-hostile to the point of probable illegality, but it's right out of both Musk's normal playbook and that of his erstwhile colleagues at e.g. Paypal" It seems like you're holding Tesla to a higher standard than any other automaker. Which other automakers reveal similar information willingly? Many (or likely most) other automakers have made deceptive and/or dangerous products, in just about every manner imaginable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Fuel_system_fires,_recalls,_and_litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Fuel_system_fires,_... https://www.theverge.com/2016/6/22/12007862/fca-jeep-grand-cherokee-gear-lever-recall-anton-yelchin https://www.theverge.com/2016/6/22/12007862/fca-jeep-grand-c...

99_00 3y ago
It's not even clear to me what information is being withheld.
- reaperducer 3y ago
  It's not even clear to me what information is being withheld. You read the whole 100GB already? I'm impressed with your speed-reading skills!
  - 99_00 3y ago
    What point are you trying to make?
mschuster91 3y ago
> It seems like you're holding Tesla to a higher standard than any other automaker. Other automakers don't go and scream around in their advertising (or in the antics of their founder) to the degree Tesla does.
- astrange 3y ago
  Tesla doesn't do any advertising. I mean, they have a website, but you have to go look at it.
  - nirav72 3y ago
    They're about to start an ad campaign. There is a video of the first TV ad floating around. So remains to be seen if it changes anything.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Therefore they scream in their advertising? It doesn't remain to be seen if claims about their existing advertising are nonsense. They are.
      - JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
        They spend all their ad budget for personal Musk propaganda, which is even more effective considering how the U.S. is very sensitive to the myth of the 'self made man who pulled up his own bootstraps' .
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        Therefore they scream in their advertising?
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    Here's a Tesla ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfMtONBK8dY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfMtONBK8dY
    - astrange 3y ago
      Do you see if you don't make any effort to?
threeseed 3y ago
We should treat Tesla the same as VW during the emissions scandal. Look forward to a criminal fraud investigation, billions in fines, Musk resigning etc.
- nickff 3y ago
  Did you look at the diesel emission scandal Wiki page? Everyone was 'cheating'; VW was a mid-level 'cheater' which took the brunt of the heat for it.
  - matthewfcarlson 3y ago
    > Since 2016, 38 out of 40 diesel cars tested by ADAC failed a NOx-test.[6] Agreed that it seems like everyone at least looked suspicious.
  - reaperducer 3y ago
    Everyone was 'cheating'; VW was a mid-level 'cheater' "But, mom! Everyone is doing it!" cried the 12-year-old. Two wrongs don't make a right.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Being a mid-level cheater but taking all the blame is not "two wrongs don't make a right" material, unless you are duty bound to force your ethics choices through the nearest aphorism.
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      I mean yes, that's just judicial precedent
  - batman-farts 3y ago
    I say this as someone still driving a pre-emissions-control diesel VW: Volkswagen had long been positioning themselves as the market leader for diesel passenger cars in the US. Nobody else was doing as much to offer diesels across their lineup, or push them as the "green"/economical option. And they have been the biggest manufacturer in Europe for a long time, so it makes sense that the EU came down on them like a ton of bricks too. There was a period in the early-mid 2000s where their diesels, along with Mercedes, got pushed out of California and CARB-compliant states. The opinion among diesel enthusiasts was that this was intentional on the part of CARB not just over NOx concerns, but also to help the market for hybrids grow. Otherwise, given the TDI's at-the-time superior highway mileage and the then-prevailing diesel prices, the VW diesel would have presented as the superior option to the Prius for a lot of people. During this period, there was still a lot of pent-up demand for the VW and Mercedes diesels in California. Any car coming from out of state with at least 8,500 miles on the odometer was considered a "used car" and could be registered no matter the powerplant, so there was quite a cottage industry of putting that much mileage on brand-new out-of-state diesels and then turning them around on LA or SF Craigslist. The market here was primed to buy VW, but VW cheated to get in a position to sell new "CARB-compliant" diesels again. I'm not surprised that the prosecutors went after them disproportionately.
naikrovek 3y ago
are you deciding that this is acceptable based on an assumption that it is commonplace? because it sure reads like this is exactly what your view. it doesn't matter if there's a double standard, it's bad behavior no matter what the rules are for everyone else. and if there is a double standard then that is something else that needs addressing. a double standard does not diminish the severity of these documents.

by nickff 3y ago

99_00 3y ago

It's not even clear to me what information is being withheld.

reaperducer 3y ago
It's not even clear to me what information is being withheld. You read the whole 100GB already? I'm impressed with your speed-reading skills!
- 99_00 3y ago
  What point are you trying to make?

mschuster91 3y ago

> It seems like you're holding Tesla to a higher standard than any other automaker. Other automakers don't go and scream around in their advertising (or in the antics of their founder) to the degree Tesla does.

astrange 3y ago
Tesla doesn't do any advertising. I mean, they have a website, but you have to go look at it.
- nirav72 3y ago
  They're about to start an ad campaign. There is a video of the first TV ad floating around. So remains to be seen if it changes anything.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Therefore they scream in their advertising? It doesn't remain to be seen if claims about their existing advertising are nonsense. They are.
    - JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
      They spend all their ad budget for personal Musk propaganda, which is even more effective considering how the U.S. is very sensitive to the myth of the 'self made man who pulled up his own bootstraps' .
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Therefore they scream in their advertising?
- clouddrover 3y ago
  Here's a Tesla ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfMtONBK8dY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfMtONBK8dY
  - astrange 3y ago
    Do you see if you don't make any effort to?

threeseed 3y ago

We should treat Tesla the same as VW during the emissions scandal. Look forward to a criminal fraud investigation, billions in fines, Musk resigning etc.

nickff 3y ago
Did you look at the diesel emission scandal Wiki page? Everyone was 'cheating'; VW was a mid-level 'cheater' which took the brunt of the heat for it.
- matthewfcarlson 3y ago
  > Since 2016, 38 out of 40 diesel cars tested by ADAC failed a NOx-test.[6] Agreed that it seems like everyone at least looked suspicious.
- reaperducer 3y ago
  Everyone was 'cheating'; VW was a mid-level 'cheater' "But, mom! Everyone is doing it!" cried the 12-year-old. Two wrongs don't make a right.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Being a mid-level cheater but taking all the blame is not "two wrongs don't make a right" material, unless you are duty bound to force your ethics choices through the nearest aphorism.
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    I mean yes, that's just judicial precedent
- batman-farts 3y ago
  I say this as someone still driving a pre-emissions-control diesel VW: Volkswagen had long been positioning themselves as the market leader for diesel passenger cars in the US. Nobody else was doing as much to offer diesels across their lineup, or push them as the "green"/economical option. And they have been the biggest manufacturer in Europe for a long time, so it makes sense that the EU came down on them like a ton of bricks too. There was a period in the early-mid 2000s where their diesels, along with Mercedes, got pushed out of California and CARB-compliant states. The opinion among diesel enthusiasts was that this was intentional on the part of CARB not just over NOx concerns, but also to help the market for hybrids grow. Otherwise, given the TDI's at-the-time superior highway mileage and the then-prevailing diesel prices, the VW diesel would have presented as the superior option to the Prius for a lot of people. During this period, there was still a lot of pent-up demand for the VW and Mercedes diesels in California. Any car coming from out of state with at least 8,500 miles on the odometer was considered a "used car" and could be registered no matter the powerplant, so there was quite a cottage industry of putting that much mileage on brand-new out-of-state diesels and then turning them around on LA or SF Craigslist. The market here was primed to buy VW, but VW cheated to get in a position to sell new "CARB-compliant" diesels again. I'm not surprised that the prosecutors went after them disproportionately.

naikrovek 3y ago

are you deciding that this is acceptable based on an assumption that it is commonplace? because it sure reads like this is exactly what your view. it doesn't matter if there's a double standard, it's bad behavior no matter what the rules are for everyone else. and if there is a double standard then that is something else that needs addressing. a double standard does not diminish the severity of these documents.