4 ms·

Pilots abort landings at SFO after spotting plane in their path

32 points by cbhl 3y ago

rohan_ 3y ago
https://archive.is/hGnsY https://archive.is/hGnsY
diebeforei485 3y ago
ATC miscommunications seem to be happening a lot these days. I'm looking forward to the VASAviation video about what happened here. If it's really bad maybe blancolirio will chime in.
- throw9away6 3y ago
  This isn’t a ATC problem it sounds like everyone was in the right it’s a procedural edge case problem where ATC can give clearance to land without the runway being clear in anticipation that it will be. Some percentage of the Time the runway does not clear in time and you have a problem .Eventually we’re going to kill 400-600 to stop this practice but in the mean time we’re just waiting for the blood to write the regulations with
eddof13 3y ago
I was on a plane during an aborted landing over the weekend, I think the 2nd/3rd I've experienced. I always assume death will occur shortly after but it hasn't yet.
- hodgesrm 3y ago
  Go-arounds are pretty common. I've experienced several in the last 20 years. * Aborted after wheels on ground at Sheremetyevo (obstacle on runway or perhaps messed up the landing; I never found out) * Aborted 30' off ground in Albuquerque (severe weather; plane was all over the place on approach) * Aborted 600-800' off ground on final approach to SeaTac (most passengers never noticed, probably runway did not clear) * Aborted 400' feet off ground on final approach to O'Hare (severe squall, it was pretty obvious the pilots were not going to land so no surpise) In the second one there was audible relief in the plane when the pilot gunned the engines to go around. The winds died down and the 2nd pass was a perfect landing.
__loam 3y ago
A similar incident happened at SFO a few years ago where an Air Canada flight tried to land on a taxiway since the normal runway was closed and unlit and the pilots missed the memo.
JimRoepcke 3y ago
In 1994 i was on a flight from Edmonton to Vancouver, and in the absolute final seconds of approach during landing it took off again as straight up as I can imagine a passenger jet going. After a while the pilot said they just missed a plane on the runway that shouldn’t have been there. He just had to take a while to gather himself after the ordeal before talking to us. We circled for about 40 mins before landing again.
- Full_Clark 3y ago
  The pilot was busy executing the missed-approach procedure, running checklists with the rest of the flight crew, and coordinating the hold with ATC before talking to the passengers. "He just had to take a while to gather himself after the ordeal" seems hyperbolic.
rlpb 3y ago
In the rest of the world, ATC are not permitted to give a landing clearance unless and until the runway is actually clear (hence the term "clearance"). The US is unique in that it permits "anticipated clearance" where the controller can assume the runway will be clear by the time the aircraft arrives and that is sufficient. In this case "anticipated clearance" was not sufficient. This is a uniquely US problem. The last time this came up was 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34703626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34703626
ironmagma 3y ago
From what I understand, part of the problem as well is that pilots cannot really see what's on the runway when they are landing, even in good conditions, because of the angle of the plane (usually pitched up during landing) and also because they are focused on instruments to be ready to execute a go-around. Why can they not install cameras?
- Full_Clark 3y ago
  Unless the landing aircraft is a Concorde or Tu-144, there's no need for a camera system. Pitch attitude on approach does not cause the nose to block out the runway. Yes, the nose is high in the the moment of flare, but a) the nose of almost any commercial aircraft is not long enough to block the pilots' view of the runway even at that attitude, and b) the moment of flare is far too late to be safely noticing another aircraft occupying your intended runway. Selective attention or visual confirmation bias (I'm really not sure what the precise cog-psych term would be, sorry) is more likely to be a problem. E.g., 20 seconds out, there is another plane already on the runway, but the flight crew is too focused on their instruments to notice it. Or they look in the right place, but they don't notice the obstacle because in the hundreds or thousands of times they've looked at an approaching runway before, there hasn't been an obstacle. And at that moment the flight crew is much more focused on glidepath and alignment than on obstacle search, so they see the runway but fail to actually notice the obstruction.
kashunstva 3y ago
Oddly, on the ATC recordings, the controller advises subsequent landing traffic of the two prior go arounds but tells the flight that that the reasons for the go arounds was unknown, when in fact she knew that they were due to conflicting traffic on the runways 28L and 28R since she gave the go around instructions in both cases (albeit belatedly in the case of the United flight.)
- firstlink 3y ago
  Looks like this was controller error, but I guess the Narrative doesn't permit news sites to report that any more after last year's incidents.
TheMatten 3y ago
Neo recently covered string of similar incidents and how this seems to be a recurring problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIiPt1YVkP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIiPt1YVkP8

32 points by cbhl 3y ago

https://archive.is/hGnsY https://archive.is/hGnsY

ATC miscommunications seem to be happening a lot these days. I'm looking forward to the VASAviation video about what happened here. If it's really bad maybe blancolirio will chime in.

throw9away6 3y ago
This isn’t a ATC problem it sounds like everyone was in the right it’s a procedural edge case problem where ATC can give clearance to land without the runway being clear in anticipation that it will be. Some percentage of the Time the runway does not clear in time and you have a problem .Eventually we’re going to kill 400-600 to stop this practice but in the mean time we’re just waiting for the blood to write the regulations with

eddof13 3y ago

I was on a plane during an aborted landing over the weekend, I think the 2nd/3rd I've experienced. I always assume death will occur shortly after but it hasn't yet.

hodgesrm 3y ago
Go-arounds are pretty common. I've experienced several in the last 20 years. * Aborted after wheels on ground at Sheremetyevo (obstacle on runway or perhaps messed up the landing; I never found out) * Aborted 30' off ground in Albuquerque (severe weather; plane was all over the place on approach) * Aborted 600-800' off ground on final approach to SeaTac (most passengers never noticed, probably runway did not clear) * Aborted 400' feet off ground on final approach to O'Hare (severe squall, it was pretty obvious the pilots were not going to land so no surpise) In the second one there was audible relief in the plane when the pilot gunned the engines to go around. The winds died down and the 2nd pass was a perfect landing.

__loam 3y ago

A similar incident happened at SFO a few years ago where an Air Canada flight tried to land on a taxiway since the normal runway was closed and unlit and the pilots missed the memo.

JimRoepcke 3y ago

In 1994 i was on a flight from Edmonton to Vancouver, and in the absolute final seconds of approach during landing it took off again as straight up as I can imagine a passenger jet going. After a while the pilot said they just missed a plane on the runway that shouldn’t have been there. He just had to take a while to gather himself after the ordeal before talking to us. We circled for about 40 mins before landing again.

Full_Clark 3y ago
The pilot was busy executing the missed-approach procedure, running checklists with the rest of the flight crew, and coordinating the hold with ATC before talking to the passengers. "He just had to take a while to gather himself after the ordeal" seems hyperbolic.

rlpb 3y ago

In the rest of the world, ATC are not permitted to give a landing clearance unless and until the runway is actually clear (hence the term "clearance"). The US is unique in that it permits "anticipated clearance" where the controller can assume the runway will be clear by the time the aircraft arrives and that is sufficient. In this case "anticipated clearance" was not sufficient. This is a uniquely US problem. The last time this came up was 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34703626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34703626

ironmagma 3y ago

From what I understand, part of the problem as well is that pilots cannot really see what's on the runway when they are landing, even in good conditions, because of the angle of the plane (usually pitched up during landing) and also because they are focused on instruments to be ready to execute a go-around. Why can they not install cameras?

Full_Clark 3y ago
Unless the landing aircraft is a Concorde or Tu-144, there's no need for a camera system. Pitch attitude on approach does not cause the nose to block out the runway. Yes, the nose is high in the the moment of flare, but a) the nose of almost any commercial aircraft is not long enough to block the pilots' view of the runway even at that attitude, and b) the moment of flare is far too late to be safely noticing another aircraft occupying your intended runway. Selective attention or visual confirmation bias (I'm really not sure what the precise cog-psych term would be, sorry) is more likely to be a problem. E.g., 20 seconds out, there is another plane already on the runway, but the flight crew is too focused on their instruments to notice it. Or they look in the right place, but they don't notice the obstacle because in the hundreds or thousands of times they've looked at an approaching runway before, there hasn't been an obstacle. And at that moment the flight crew is much more focused on glidepath and alignment than on obstacle search, so they see the runway but fail to actually notice the obstruction.

kashunstva 3y ago

Oddly, on the ATC recordings, the controller advises subsequent landing traffic of the two prior go arounds but tells the flight that that the reasons for the go arounds was unknown, when in fact she knew that they were due to conflicting traffic on the runways 28L and 28R since she gave the go around instructions in both cases (albeit belatedly in the case of the United flight.)

firstlink 3y ago
Looks like this was controller error, but I guess the Narrative doesn't permit news sites to report that any more after last year's incidents.

TheMatten 3y ago

Neo recently covered string of similar incidents and how this seems to be a recurring problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIiPt1YVkP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIiPt1YVkP8