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This is just the beginning of all US federal agencies being gutted down to the core I hate to say it. Probably within the next year. https://www.politico.com/ne

This is just the beginning of all US federal agencies being gutted down to the core I hate to say it. Probably within the next year. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/01/supreme-court-chevron-doctrine-climate-change-00094670 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/01/supreme-court-chevr... Going forward, the battles of regulation will go down to state and local levels. You can see it in broadband as an good example, where the FCC has become increasingly corrupt, feckless and powerless, and all the real battles are now state by state, block by block.

Ancapistani 3y ago
> This is just the beginning of all US federal agencies being gutted down to the core I hate to say it. I agree, but am pleased to see it. From a personal perspective, every hobby or interest I have exposes some other federal agency that's hostile toward it, and hated by that community for going well beyond their statutory authority. Speaking more generally... I think severely curtailing the non-statutory authority of federal agencies is just about the only path toward keeping our federal system in the long run. Most of this country (by area, not population) is increasingly resentful of the federal government's actions, and their ability to enforce the law is decaying over time. I think we'll see the Chevron Doctrine significantly limited, if not completely overturned. There are several firearms cases working their way through the courts now that would be well-suited for that. If it's done via another case, those will likely be remanded and reversed by the appellate to avoid setting more precedent specific to firearms.
- sundaeofshock 3y ago
  > Most of this country (by area, not population) is increasingly resentful of the federal government's actions, Land doesn’t vote.
  - brg 3y ago
    In the US, the Senate represents land ownership well.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Though it can seem like land is given the vote when you compare the amount of influence subsides etc rural communities have compared to urban areas.
    - edgyquant 3y ago
      Huge swathes of land, their populations and resources shouldn’t be controlled by an out of touch city, or group of cities, just because they attract more people from all over. Land doesn’t vote but regions of people do, and those regions should dictate their own policy.
      - fzeroracer 3y ago
        So if those huge swaths of land end up poisoning rivers, streams etc which feed into lakes that supply drinking water for the cities, who exactly should have jurisdiction? And no this isn't a rhetorical argument, the reasons why we have these regulations is because farms will gladly dump whatever into nearby streams and destroy water supplies because it's quite literally downstream of them and this doesn't directly affect them.
        db48x 3y ago
        This case wasn’t about a farm or rivers or lakes. It was about a lot with a ditch that someone wanted to build a house on. The EPA wanted the law to cover any property with any kind of feature to control rainwater or runoff, which is basically every piece of property in the country: > Within a few years, the agencies had “interpreted their jurisdiction over ‘the waters of the United States’ to cover 270-to-300 million acres” of wetlands and “virtually any parcel of land containing a channel or conduit . . . through which rainwater or drainage may occasionally or intermittently flow.” Rapanos, 547 U. S., at 722 (plurality opinion). All the court did here was rule that the law doesn’t cover ditches which might occasionally have rainwater in them. The EPA will have to go back to the older definition that includes navigable waterways, such as rivers, lakes, and seas that carry interstate or international trade, as well as the wetlands adjacent to them. As usual, Congress retains the power to amend the law to give it a more precise definition. They could even amend it so that it does cover any random ditch that might occasionally have water in it if they wanted. Congress could have made that choice at any time in the last 50 years, but they have chosen to leave the law vague instead. If you think that the Clean Water Act _should_ be applied to every single ditch in America, then write your Representative and tell them off for not doing their job.
  - resizeitplz 3y ago
    The Senate approves judicial nominees and land very much does vote for the Senate.
  - Ancapistani 3y ago
    No, but being geographically distant tends to encourage the development of distinct cultures, and that's what's at issue here.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- infamouscow 3y ago
  You're being downvoted by people that don't really believe in democracy. They think they do, but they don't when put under the slightest bit of scrutiny. If the argument is we share these resources and there's externalities, I'd ask why not focus on getting BRICS to pass your policies first? It will have a much greater impact than what can be done in the US. If you can't get BRICS to pass your policies, then what is the point? If the argument is that we can at least make a small impact locally, why not extend that reasoning further to allow the people in each state, and the people in each municipality to decide? I look forward to the rebuttals given some countries are already excluded from participating in the G7.
- rektide 3y ago
  I agree there is a really sad anti-hobbyist bias. The FAA are criminal in holding back anything other than incredibly big industry, but I still tend to think it's mostly negligence & scale, that they have real concerns at scale to tackle & can't allocate 20% of their resources to letting necessary clutch innovation & experimentation happen. I do think people are broadly incredibly resentful. But I also think these critics would be enormously more interesting to listen to if they had nuance & perspective, if they could acknowledge how necessary it was that we did things like create the EPA & how important it is to safeguard & protect ourselves in a long term. So much of the dissent is pure disdain, just inchoate rage, and it's unclear that folks are worth heeding. There is a huge propaganda network running very very effectively on rage against any governance. It has become a horrible mind poison.
- specialist 3y ago
  SCOTUS is gathering both legislative and executive power onto itself. Our Constitution's balance of powers was specifically designed to curtail that. As a long time fan of democracy and loyal citizen of the USA, I'd rather have elected representation, for all their faults, rather than a cabal of reactionary corporatists with lifetime appointment and near zero accountability, calling the shots. But opinions differ. Some think monarchy is just terrific. Because 2400 years ago Plato blathered about mobs and tyrants and wokeness.
  - Ancapistani 3y ago
    > I'd rather have elected representation I think that’s the root of the problem. This case wasn’t about overturning a law, it was about reining in an unelected federal agency that had interpreted the law in a way that a plain reading doesn’t support. If Congress had written the Clean Water Act in a way that authorized this position, we’d be having an entirely different conversation.
    - specialist 3y ago
      The Clean Water Act not applying to wetlands is not Alito's dumbest decision. More like tied for first place. I volunteered for a wetlands conservation group for a decade. Only made possible by Bush 41's efforts to further codify and protect wetlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_net_loss_wetlands_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_net_loss_wetlands_policy The hubris of Alito et al to judge our best available science, despite having zero expertise, despite decades of policy, despite decades of scientific and methodology advances, is just bonkers. Oh, sorry, they're just being textualists. A totally real, consistent, and in no way purely fabricated as needed case-by-case legal doctrine. I can't wait to humor the SCOTUS' anti-textualism tortured rationalism next time they choose originalism, major doctrines, or an entirely new legal fiction to reach their predetermined outcome. Probably next week.
- Incipient 3y ago
  I'd have to disagree on government regulation being bad. Sure some things aren't done well, as you say hobbyists can suffer, but without regulation at scale the majority of the population suffers. If it's not regulated, every big company will abuse whatever they can (people or otherwise) to get ahead.
  - Ancapistani 3y ago
    I don’t agree with your conclusion, but totally grant that the reasoning is valid. That said - I didn’t posit that all government regulation is bad in my original post in this thread. I said that weakening the power of federal agencies is likely the only path to maintaining our federal system in the long term. While yes, my “end goal” is the dissolution of the state, I’m not naive enough to believe that could happen overnight and it be a good thing. Instead, I’d like to see government functions replaced one by one by private enterprises through natural market forces, culminating in dissolution of the state through lack of utility and interest in continuing it. That would be a multi-generational project even by the most optimistic projections.
    - specialist 3y ago
      There are no markets without regulation. Regulations make the market.
    - Incipient 3y ago
      You mean "private enterprise natural forces" that result in drivers being forced to urinate in bottles, tips stolen, unionising workers essentially fired, and then list goes on? Yeah you can stick that. Hard. People and companies will always try to screw over the little person. Government's role is to mitigate that.

Ancapistani 3y ago

> This is just the beginning of all US federal agencies being gutted down to the core I hate to say it. I agree, but am pleased to see it. From a personal perspective, every hobby or interest I have exposes some other federal agency that's hostile toward it, and hated by that community for going well beyond their statutory authority. Speaking more generally... I think severely curtailing the non-statutory authority of federal agencies is just about the only path toward keeping our federal system in the long run. Most of this country (by area, not population) is increasingly resentful of the federal government's actions, and their ability to enforce the law is decaying over time. I think we'll see the Chevron Doctrine significantly limited, if not completely overturned. There are several firearms cases working their way through the courts now that would be well-suited for that. If it's done via another case, those will likely be remanded and reversed by the appellate to avoid setting more precedent specific to firearms.

sundaeofshock 3y ago
> Most of this country (by area, not population) is increasingly resentful of the federal government's actions, Land doesn’t vote.
- brg 3y ago
  In the US, the Senate represents land ownership well.
- Retric 3y ago
  Though it can seem like land is given the vote when you compare the amount of influence subsides etc rural communities have compared to urban areas.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    Huge swathes of land, their populations and resources shouldn’t be controlled by an out of touch city, or group of cities, just because they attract more people from all over. Land doesn’t vote but regions of people do, and those regions should dictate their own policy.
    - fzeroracer 3y ago
      So if those huge swaths of land end up poisoning rivers, streams etc which feed into lakes that supply drinking water for the cities, who exactly should have jurisdiction? And no this isn't a rhetorical argument, the reasons why we have these regulations is because farms will gladly dump whatever into nearby streams and destroy water supplies because it's quite literally downstream of them and this doesn't directly affect them.
      - db48x 3y ago
        This case wasn’t about a farm or rivers or lakes. It was about a lot with a ditch that someone wanted to build a house on. The EPA wanted the law to cover any property with any kind of feature to control rainwater or runoff, which is basically every piece of property in the country: > Within a few years, the agencies had “interpreted their jurisdiction over ‘the waters of the United States’ to cover 270-to-300 million acres” of wetlands and “virtually any parcel of land containing a channel or conduit . . . through which rainwater or drainage may occasionally or intermittently flow.” Rapanos, 547 U. S., at 722 (plurality opinion). All the court did here was rule that the law doesn’t cover ditches which might occasionally have rainwater in them. The EPA will have to go back to the older definition that includes navigable waterways, such as rivers, lakes, and seas that carry interstate or international trade, as well as the wetlands adjacent to them. As usual, Congress retains the power to amend the law to give it a more precise definition. They could even amend it so that it does cover any random ditch that might occasionally have water in it if they wanted. Congress could have made that choice at any time in the last 50 years, but they have chosen to leave the law vague instead. If you think that the Clean Water Act _should_ be applied to every single ditch in America, then write your Representative and tell them off for not doing their job.
- resizeitplz 3y ago
  The Senate approves judicial nominees and land very much does vote for the Senate.
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  No, but being geographically distant tends to encourage the development of distinct cultures, and that's what's at issue here.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
infamouscow 3y ago
You're being downvoted by people that don't really believe in democracy. They think they do, but they don't when put under the slightest bit of scrutiny. If the argument is we share these resources and there's externalities, I'd ask why not focus on getting BRICS to pass your policies first? It will have a much greater impact than what can be done in the US. If you can't get BRICS to pass your policies, then what is the point? If the argument is that we can at least make a small impact locally, why not extend that reasoning further to allow the people in each state, and the people in each municipality to decide? I look forward to the rebuttals given some countries are already excluded from participating in the G7.
rektide 3y ago
I agree there is a really sad anti-hobbyist bias. The FAA are criminal in holding back anything other than incredibly big industry, but I still tend to think it's mostly negligence & scale, that they have real concerns at scale to tackle & can't allocate 20% of their resources to letting necessary clutch innovation & experimentation happen. I do think people are broadly incredibly resentful. But I also think these critics would be enormously more interesting to listen to if they had nuance & perspective, if they could acknowledge how necessary it was that we did things like create the EPA & how important it is to safeguard & protect ourselves in a long term. So much of the dissent is pure disdain, just inchoate rage, and it's unclear that folks are worth heeding. There is a huge propaganda network running very very effectively on rage against any governance. It has become a horrible mind poison.
specialist 3y ago
SCOTUS is gathering both legislative and executive power onto itself. Our Constitution's balance of powers was specifically designed to curtail that. As a long time fan of democracy and loyal citizen of the USA, I'd rather have elected representation, for all their faults, rather than a cabal of reactionary corporatists with lifetime appointment and near zero accountability, calling the shots. But opinions differ. Some think monarchy is just terrific. Because 2400 years ago Plato blathered about mobs and tyrants and wokeness.
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  > I'd rather have elected representation I think that’s the root of the problem. This case wasn’t about overturning a law, it was about reining in an unelected federal agency that had interpreted the law in a way that a plain reading doesn’t support. If Congress had written the Clean Water Act in a way that authorized this position, we’d be having an entirely different conversation.
  - specialist 3y ago
    The Clean Water Act not applying to wetlands is not Alito's dumbest decision. More like tied for first place. I volunteered for a wetlands conservation group for a decade. Only made possible by Bush 41's efforts to further codify and protect wetlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_net_loss_wetlands_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_net_loss_wetlands_policy The hubris of Alito et al to judge our best available science, despite having zero expertise, despite decades of policy, despite decades of scientific and methodology advances, is just bonkers. Oh, sorry, they're just being textualists. A totally real, consistent, and in no way purely fabricated as needed case-by-case legal doctrine. I can't wait to humor the SCOTUS' anti-textualism tortured rationalism next time they choose originalism, major doctrines, or an entirely new legal fiction to reach their predetermined outcome. Probably next week.
Incipient 3y ago
I'd have to disagree on government regulation being bad. Sure some things aren't done well, as you say hobbyists can suffer, but without regulation at scale the majority of the population suffers. If it's not regulated, every big company will abuse whatever they can (people or otherwise) to get ahead.
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  I don’t agree with your conclusion, but totally grant that the reasoning is valid. That said - I didn’t posit that all government regulation is bad in my original post in this thread. I said that weakening the power of federal agencies is likely the only path to maintaining our federal system in the long term. While yes, my “end goal” is the dissolution of the state, I’m not naive enough to believe that could happen overnight and it be a good thing. Instead, I’d like to see government functions replaced one by one by private enterprises through natural market forces, culminating in dissolution of the state through lack of utility and interest in continuing it. That would be a multi-generational project even by the most optimistic projections.
  - specialist 3y ago
    There are no markets without regulation. Regulations make the market.
  - Incipient 3y ago
    You mean "private enterprise natural forces" that result in drivers being forced to urinate in bottles, tips stolen, unionising workers essentially fired, and then list goes on? Yeah you can stick that. Hard. People and companies will always try to screw over the little person. Government's role is to mitigate that.