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Why was the US in Vietnam in the first place if the assumption was that Capitalism was much better than Communism? For something to be so much better than the

Why was the US in Vietnam in the first place if the assumption was that Capitalism was much better than Communism? For something to be so much better than the alternative it sure was a close ideological race between the 2 systems.

twoodfin 3y ago
The US was in Vietnam fundamentally because graduates of the most elite US universities were not intellectually prepared to distinguish a genuine—if morally suspect—anti-colonial popular revolution from the kind of externally orchestrated Communist takeovers of the immediate post-WW2 period.
- Maultasche 3y ago
  The sad thing was that Ho Chi Minh had previously lived in the United States and initially was friendly toward the US until they started meddling in Vietnam. If the US could had gotten past the whole "communism = enemy" thing, they probably could have had quite good relations with a communist Vietnam.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    The US has pretty good relations with Vietnam now
- RIMR 3y ago
  Since when was hostility to imperialism suspicious? Like, you think we were right to use military force to defend ourselves against a country that was defending itself against invasion? That just sounds like justifying an unlawful and immoral invasion after-the-fact...
  - yamtaddle 3y ago
    Anti-imperialism had a history of being used (successfully or not) by oppressive, expansionist states to enlist the aid of or to commit imperialism against colonized countries. The Nazis attempted the former in, especially, the middle east, and Soviets did a fair bit of the latter. IIRC the Kaiser's government made some similar moves in WWI (but every major player in that war was imperialist, more or less). Anti-imperial revolutions or movements sometimes really were Soviet attempts to install autocratic puppet governments. On the flip side, of course, so were many US and NATO interventions—but this is why "anti-imperialist" might be taken as possibly actually meaning anti-NATO and pro-Soviet—much "anti-imperialism" was really just a smokescreen for Soviet maneuvering, same as "liberation" et c. often has been, when the US does it—it'd be foolish for actors on the international stage to take either claim at face value, because they've a history of being half-true or not at all true, just a PR cover for realpolitik Great Games. Hell, even the British, one of the most-colonial of colonial powers ever, used this against the Ottomans, and it was a lie then, too. Seen Lawrence of Arabia? Stirring up Arab nationalism against the colonizing Turks, not actually for their sake, but just as a convenient play in a larger game? This is why US elites at the time might genuinely have believed that going to war in Vietnam was a good idea—even bordering on necessary—and perhaps, truly, believed it was morally defensible.
reducesuffering 3y ago
Ultimately the reason the US was in Vietnam includes the context of the Korean war that just happened a decade prior. The US was hoping we would have two South Koreas ($35k GDP per capita) than a Communist Vietnam ($3.5k GDP per capita) https://twitter.com/cafreiman/status/1623863406276091906 https://twitter.com/cafreiman/status/1623863406276091906

twoodfin 3y ago

The US was in Vietnam fundamentally because graduates of the most elite US universities were not intellectually prepared to distinguish a genuine—if morally suspect—anti-colonial popular revolution from the kind of externally orchestrated Communist takeovers of the immediate post-WW2 period.

Maultasche 3y ago
The sad thing was that Ho Chi Minh had previously lived in the United States and initially was friendly toward the US until they started meddling in Vietnam. If the US could had gotten past the whole "communism = enemy" thing, they probably could have had quite good relations with a communist Vietnam.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  The US has pretty good relations with Vietnam now
RIMR 3y ago
Since when was hostility to imperialism suspicious? Like, you think we were right to use military force to defend ourselves against a country that was defending itself against invasion? That just sounds like justifying an unlawful and immoral invasion after-the-fact...
- yamtaddle 3y ago
  Anti-imperialism had a history of being used (successfully or not) by oppressive, expansionist states to enlist the aid of or to commit imperialism against colonized countries. The Nazis attempted the former in, especially, the middle east, and Soviets did a fair bit of the latter. IIRC the Kaiser's government made some similar moves in WWI (but every major player in that war was imperialist, more or less). Anti-imperial revolutions or movements sometimes really were Soviet attempts to install autocratic puppet governments. On the flip side, of course, so were many US and NATO interventions—but this is why "anti-imperialist" might be taken as possibly actually meaning anti-NATO and pro-Soviet—much "anti-imperialism" was really just a smokescreen for Soviet maneuvering, same as "liberation" et c. often has been, when the US does it—it'd be foolish for actors on the international stage to take either claim at face value, because they've a history of being half-true or not at all true, just a PR cover for realpolitik Great Games. Hell, even the British, one of the most-colonial of colonial powers ever, used this against the Ottomans, and it was a lie then, too. Seen Lawrence of Arabia? Stirring up Arab nationalism against the colonizing Turks, not actually for their sake, but just as a convenient play in a larger game? This is why US elites at the time might genuinely have believed that going to war in Vietnam was a good idea—even bordering on necessary—and perhaps, truly, believed it was morally defensible.

reducesuffering 3y ago

Ultimately the reason the US was in Vietnam includes the context of the Korean war that just happened a decade prior. The US was hoping we would have two South Koreas ($35k GDP per capita) than a Communist Vietnam ($3.5k GDP per capita) https://twitter.com/cafreiman/status/1623863406276091906 https://twitter.com/cafreiman/status/1623863406276091906