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> keep enough distance, pay attention and this is never an issue That isn’t how safety regulations work. Driving is a cooperative affair and giving more inform

> keep enough distance, pay attention and this is never an issue That isn’t how safety regulations work. Driving is a cooperative affair and giving more information about your intend to the drivers around you is a good thing. I mean if all it took was “keep distance and pay attention” why bother with turn signals? And as a side note: “self driving” cars still haven’t completely figured out the right algorithm for turn signals. I watch enough “AI Driver” on YouTube to see him call out how Tesla’s turn signaling is sometimes pretty erratic. It is probably a pretty hard problem when you think about it. Showing brake lights is much easier. Got a deceleration over a certain value? Well, show them lights!

mynameisvlad 3y ago
> I mean if all it took was “keep distance and pay attention” why bother with turn signals? Have you met BMW drivers? /s You should be practicing defensive driving whenever you drive. It's what's taught nowadays and has been for a long while. You should expect others to be driving at their worst. No turn signals, broken tail lights, erratic lane change, abrupt braking or acceleration, the whole shebang. Expecting the worst is the best way to ensure your own safety on the road.
- SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
  I laughed at the mention of BMW drivers because it's so spot on. I agree that defensive driving is always the way to go, but at a certain point you need information. TC essentially goes from 100km/h to stopped in less than 15 seconds without any obvious visual indication. That's coming to the point where there's almost no defensive driving possible and a deadly highway collision becomes more likely than not. It's the same in any situation. Always assume people will do completely insane things and prepare accordingly, but that doesn't mean we should make things more dangerous for no good reason. For all the truth that more chaotic roads make for more attentive drivers, they also still make for more accidents.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Yes. But the point is more information is good. You can be the most observant most defensively best trained driver, and more predictable information is still good. I don't understand the motivation of arguing an objectively provably demonstrably good thing, because some other thing is also good :-).
  - mynameisvlad 3y ago
    Sure, more information is good, but you shouldn't expect that information. People don't use DRLs and turn signals all the time. Lights break. Electrical connections degrade. Old cars almost never keep up with advancements in signaling technology. All the signals in the world wouldn't help people deal with someone that refuses to use their indicators or doesn't maintain their old car, and that is the expectation you should have when driving: the worst possible drivers around you all the time. You can deal with practically any situation as long as you're keeping your distance and staying observant. Regardless what the people around you are or are not doing.
    - NikolaNovak 3y ago
      Agreed. Fully. And yet precisely none of that, to me at least, is persuasive reason to NOT put the most effective possible light and information on cars coming out of the factory :-) (And don't even get me started on red vs amber rear turning signals ;)
- NegativeK 3y ago
  There are two different problems. One is educating drivers to be better. Drive more predictably, drive more defensively, drive safer in adverse conditions, etc. The other is designing the driving experience as a system to deal with humans. Systems that don't anticipate human faults are brittle and, frankly, shitty. Just like you can't expect 100% of users to be phish resistant, you can _not_ expect perfection from drivers, and you _must_ build in compensations to deal with it. That means well designed roads, good brakes lights, and even brake lights that account for one-pedal driving.
  - sdfiognionio 3y ago
    Adding new indicators is an obvious and inoffensive thing to do. I don't think anyone is claiming we shouldn't build cars to be safe. It is, however, horrifying that there are drivers so incompetent they don't even know what engine braking is. It is hardly an advanced topic. Any driver who doesn't know cars can decelerate without the brake lights coming on has no business being on the road.
sdfiognionio 3y ago
In my neck of the woods at least, driving safely is impossible. Nearly every major road is over capacity and getting worse. Most drivers are half-trained at best. Constant traffic jams fray the nerves. A lack of public transportation means people are on the road for longer than they can focus. The best selling vehicle is the Ford F-150. Leaving adequate following distance just results in someone taking that as an invitation to swerve a quarter second in front of you. We should develop every technical solution we can, but the reason American drivers are in so much danger is social.

mynameisvlad 3y ago

> I mean if all it took was “keep distance and pay attention” why bother with turn signals? Have you met BMW drivers? /s You should be practicing defensive driving whenever you drive. It's what's taught nowadays and has been for a long while. You should expect others to be driving at their worst. No turn signals, broken tail lights, erratic lane change, abrupt braking or acceleration, the whole shebang. Expecting the worst is the best way to ensure your own safety on the road.

SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
I laughed at the mention of BMW drivers because it's so spot on. I agree that defensive driving is always the way to go, but at a certain point you need information. TC essentially goes from 100km/h to stopped in less than 15 seconds without any obvious visual indication. That's coming to the point where there's almost no defensive driving possible and a deadly highway collision becomes more likely than not. It's the same in any situation. Always assume people will do completely insane things and prepare accordingly, but that doesn't mean we should make things more dangerous for no good reason. For all the truth that more chaotic roads make for more attentive drivers, they also still make for more accidents.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
Yes. But the point is more information is good. You can be the most observant most defensively best trained driver, and more predictable information is still good. I don't understand the motivation of arguing an objectively provably demonstrably good thing, because some other thing is also good :-).
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  Sure, more information is good, but you shouldn't expect that information. People don't use DRLs and turn signals all the time. Lights break. Electrical connections degrade. Old cars almost never keep up with advancements in signaling technology. All the signals in the world wouldn't help people deal with someone that refuses to use their indicators or doesn't maintain their old car, and that is the expectation you should have when driving: the worst possible drivers around you all the time. You can deal with practically any situation as long as you're keeping your distance and staying observant. Regardless what the people around you are or are not doing.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    Agreed. Fully. And yet precisely none of that, to me at least, is persuasive reason to NOT put the most effective possible light and information on cars coming out of the factory :-) (And don't even get me started on red vs amber rear turning signals ;)
NegativeK 3y ago
There are two different problems. One is educating drivers to be better. Drive more predictably, drive more defensively, drive safer in adverse conditions, etc. The other is designing the driving experience as a system to deal with humans. Systems that don't anticipate human faults are brittle and, frankly, shitty. Just like you can't expect 100% of users to be phish resistant, you can _not_ expect perfection from drivers, and you _must_ build in compensations to deal with it. That means well designed roads, good brakes lights, and even brake lights that account for one-pedal driving.
- sdfiognionio 3y ago
  Adding new indicators is an obvious and inoffensive thing to do. I don't think anyone is claiming we shouldn't build cars to be safe. It is, however, horrifying that there are drivers so incompetent they don't even know what engine braking is. It is hardly an advanced topic. Any driver who doesn't know cars can decelerate without the brake lights coming on has no business being on the road.

sdfiognionio 3y ago

In my neck of the woods at least, driving safely is impossible. Nearly every major road is over capacity and getting worse. Most drivers are half-trained at best. Constant traffic jams fray the nerves. A lack of public transportation means people are on the road for longer than they can focus. The best selling vehicle is the Ford F-150. Leaving adequate following distance just results in someone taking that as an invitation to swerve a quarter second in front of you. We should develop every technical solution we can, but the reason American drivers are in so much danger is social.