5 ms·

Think it through - would a billion dollar industry have resources to pay people to run illegitimate studies to create sham findings in their favor? Is there a c

by yboris 3y ago

Think it through - would a billion dollar industry have resources to pay people to run illegitimate studies to create sham findings in their favor? Is there a counter-balancing force with the same amount of financial backing? Meat consumption has reliably been found to have bad effects on health.

elil17 3y ago
I'm not saying your wrong, but I think you should take a step back and consider how this sounds to someone who doesn't share your opinion. You're pretty much saying that, as long as you ignore the studies which you consider to be illegitimate, then the outcome of the science is clear. The fact of the matter is that research showing that eating meat has a negative impact on health also suffers from conflicts of interest. Now, those conflicts of interest come from many researchers compassion for animals - and there's a big moral difference between that and conflicts of interest which come from the greed of the meat industry. But from a scientific perspective, it's not legitimate to simply dismiss one side and accept the other.
- the_gastropod 3y ago
  This feels like more of the "BOTH SIDES!" dilemma that's plagued politics and journalism for the past decade. Frankly, I don't understand how one distinguishes this from good ol' fashioned nihilism. If we're treating potential "compassion for animals" as a conflict of interest, there's not a study in history that could be completely free of conflict of interest. Not everything has to be a both sides equivocation . Degree and severity matter. "Compassion for animals" and "receiving funding from a party with a vested interest in the outcome" are not equivalent conflicts of interest.
  - elil17 3y ago
    I think they're very different conflicts of interest from an ethical perspective. It is morally reprehensible to try to skew scientific results for greed. It is (in my view) not so morally reprehensible to try to skew scientific results because you want to stop animals from getting hurt. But from the scientific perspective, there is a specific factual question: what are the effects of meat consumption on human health? Nutrition research is super finicky. Even absent any conflict of interest, it's unclear that nutrition results are trustworthy. So I don't think it's fair to throw out every study which says meat is healthy and just focus on the studies that say meat is unhealthy.
    - the_gastropod 3y ago
      Fair enough. And I agree. It's not ok to toss out any study that says meat is healthy. But it _is_ fair to be deeply suspicious if it was funded by a financially interested party. And, for what it's worth, this should apply to avocado studies funded by Avocados From Mexico, orange juice studies funded by Tropicana, banana studies by Chiquita, etc.
    - ROTMetro 3y ago
      Come on, they are both equally morally reprehensible as they erode trust in science and lead us towards darkness. Ends doesn't justify the means, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This is basic level stuff.
      - elil17 3y ago
        I don't like either but they will never be equal in my mind. Person A sees someone torturing a dog and kills them out of indignation. Person B is a hitman-for-hire who doesn't know who he's killed or why. Are person A and B really morally equivalent?
      - the_gastropod 3y ago
        If they deliberately skewed their results to fit their narrative, yes: that's obviously reprehensible. That's not what we're talking about, however. We're talking about what level of suspicion is appropriate in various scenarios. It's unlikely we can _know_ if results were purposefully sabotaged or not. We have to make some best guess. Interested parties funding studies is deeply suspicious, and should be treated with a hefty dose of skepticism. Hand waving that "maybe the researchers were motivated by empathy?!" is not at all equivalent. That is a incredibly low bar that, itself, undermines trust in science, as one could trivially make up similar excuses to distrust virtually any study ever conducted. Oh, researchers found declining sources of fresh water year over year? Biased. They probably just like cheap drinking water. Better ignore it. An Aquafina-backed study shows the opposite. That study is biased, too. But they're both equally morally reprehensible.
importantbrian 3y ago
Wheat [1], Corn [2], Sugar [3], Fruit [4], etc. Are all multi-billion dollar industries as well. Are you equally skeptical of studies demonstrating the health effects of fruits and vegetables? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/190362/total-us-wheat-production-value-from-2000/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/190362/total-us-wheat-pr... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1167209/leading-global-corn-exporters/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1167209/leading-global-c... [3] https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2023/05/12/2667487/0/en/At-a-CAGR-of-5-0-The-Industrial-Sugar-Market-Size-Anticipated-to-Reach-59-1-billion-by-2028-Says-MarketsandMarkets.html#:~:text=As%20per%20the%20report%20published,Ltd https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2023/05/12/266748.... [4] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/food/fruits-nuts/fresh-fruits/worldwide https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/food/fruits-nuts/fresh-...
- kevviiinn 3y ago
  Calling wheat, corn, and sugar vegetables is a disingenuous stretch
  - importantbrian 3y ago
    I guess you missed the etc. But the fresh vegetable market is a 3/4 of a trillion dollar industry [1]. [1] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/food/vegetables/fresh-vegetables/worldwide https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/food/vegetables/fresh-v...
    - kevviiinn 3y ago
      Okay? So where are the studies funded by big veggie?
      - importantbrian 3y ago
        There are tons of them. Just as a quick example, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2019.1632258 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2019.1... this is a study who's funding came from the Produce for Better Health Foundation, which is a non-profit with the specific goal of increasing fruit and vegetable consumption. It's executive committee and financial partners are all produce industry execs and companies. They cite 422 references and if you go through them you'll find that many of them are funded by similar industry groups or directly from major produce companies.

by yboris 3y ago

elil17 3y ago

I'm not saying your wrong, but I think you should take a step back and consider how this sounds to someone who doesn't share your opinion. You're pretty much saying that, as long as you ignore the studies which you consider to be illegitimate, then the outcome of the science is clear. The fact of the matter is that research showing that eating meat has a negative impact on health also suffers from conflicts of interest. Now, those conflicts of interest come from many researchers compassion for animals - and there's a big moral difference between that and conflicts of interest which come from the greed of the meat industry. But from a scientific perspective, it's not legitimate to simply dismiss one side and accept the other.

the_gastropod 3y ago
This feels like more of the "BOTH SIDES!" dilemma that's plagued politics and journalism for the past decade. Frankly, I don't understand how one distinguishes this from good ol' fashioned nihilism. If we're treating potential "compassion for animals" as a conflict of interest, there's not a study in history that could be completely free of conflict of interest. Not everything has to be a both sides equivocation . Degree and severity matter. "Compassion for animals" and "receiving funding from a party with a vested interest in the outcome" are not equivalent conflicts of interest.
- elil17 3y ago
  I think they're very different conflicts of interest from an ethical perspective. It is morally reprehensible to try to skew scientific results for greed. It is (in my view) not so morally reprehensible to try to skew scientific results because you want to stop animals from getting hurt. But from the scientific perspective, there is a specific factual question: what are the effects of meat consumption on human health? Nutrition research is super finicky. Even absent any conflict of interest, it's unclear that nutrition results are trustworthy. So I don't think it's fair to throw out every study which says meat is healthy and just focus on the studies that say meat is unhealthy.
  - the_gastropod 3y ago
    Fair enough. And I agree. It's not ok to toss out any study that says meat is healthy. But it _is_ fair to be deeply suspicious if it was funded by a financially interested party. And, for what it's worth, this should apply to avocado studies funded by Avocados From Mexico, orange juice studies funded by Tropicana, banana studies by Chiquita, etc.
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    Come on, they are both equally morally reprehensible as they erode trust in science and lead us towards darkness. Ends doesn't justify the means, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This is basic level stuff.
    - elil17 3y ago
      I don't like either but they will never be equal in my mind. Person A sees someone torturing a dog and kills them out of indignation. Person B is a hitman-for-hire who doesn't know who he's killed or why. Are person A and B really morally equivalent?
    - the_gastropod 3y ago
      If they deliberately skewed their results to fit their narrative, yes: that's obviously reprehensible. That's not what we're talking about, however. We're talking about what level of suspicion is appropriate in various scenarios. It's unlikely we can _know_ if results were purposefully sabotaged or not. We have to make some best guess. Interested parties funding studies is deeply suspicious, and should be treated with a hefty dose of skepticism. Hand waving that "maybe the researchers were motivated by empathy?!" is not at all equivalent. That is a incredibly low bar that, itself, undermines trust in science, as one could trivially make up similar excuses to distrust virtually any study ever conducted. Oh, researchers found declining sources of fresh water year over year? Biased. They probably just like cheap drinking water. Better ignore it. An Aquafina-backed study shows the opposite. That study is biased, too. But they're both equally morally reprehensible.

importantbrian 3y ago

Wheat [1], Corn [2], Sugar [3], Fruit [4], etc. Are all multi-billion dollar industries as well. Are you equally skeptical of studies demonstrating the health effects of fruits and vegetables? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/190362/total-us-wheat-production-value-from-2000/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/190362/total-us-wheat-pr... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1167209/leading-global-corn-exporters/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1167209/leading-global-c... [3] https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2023/05/12/2667487/0/en/At-a-CAGR-of-5-0-The-Industrial-Sugar-Market-Size-Anticipated-to-Reach-59-1-billion-by-2028-Says-MarketsandMarkets.html#:~:text=As%20per%20the%20report%20published,Ltd https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2023/05/12/266748.... [4] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/food/fruits-nuts/fresh-fruits/worldwide https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/food/fruits-nuts/fresh-...

kevviiinn 3y ago
Calling wheat, corn, and sugar vegetables is a disingenuous stretch
- importantbrian 3y ago
  I guess you missed the etc. But the fresh vegetable market is a 3/4 of a trillion dollar industry [1]. [1] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/food/vegetables/fresh-vegetables/worldwide https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/food/vegetables/fresh-v...
  - kevviiinn 3y ago
    Okay? So where are the studies funded by big veggie?
    - importantbrian 3y ago
      There are tons of them. Just as a quick example, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2019.1632258 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2019.1... this is a study who's funding came from the Produce for Better Health Foundation, which is a non-profit with the specific goal of increasing fruit and vegetable consumption. It's executive committee and financial partners are all produce industry execs and companies. They cite 422 references and if you go through them you'll find that many of them are funded by similar industry groups or directly from major produce companies.