5 ms·

Is this Paris? Only city I could think of with your description. Because there were no shopping malls in the 18th century. The precursor to shopping malls were

by prox 3y ago

Is this Paris? Only city I could think of with your description. Because there were no shopping malls in the 18th century. The precursor to shopping malls were bazaars which are very old. So that part of your comment seems not chronologically and terminology accurate.

fein 3y ago
Judging by the name of the parent, I'd say Portugal.
- VK538FY 3y ago
  The French revolution took place at the end of the 18th century and I'm sure that a lot of churches in Paris (or any French city) were demolished in a big FU to God. I can't recall something similar having taken place in Portugal at the time. Or anywhere else.
  - prometheus76 3y ago
    This happened everywhere that the Soviet Union "spread" to. Churches were demolished, desecrated, or burned. Some were re-purposed, but many were destroyed.
    - mistrial9 3y ago
      church politics were not entirely innocent in this either
  - Bayart 3y ago
    Official anti-clericalism and state atheism lasted for a very short period of time, not nearly enough to do any damage to the churches save for surface vandalism and pillaging of the statuary, furniture etc. The great victims of the Revolution are the monasteries and the castles. The monasteries were officially dissolved (in a movement similar to what had happened in England under Henry VIII), their land redistributed and their buildings sold for stone. The same happened to aristocratic holdings and most Medieval castles that somehow managed to survive until then were destroyed over the first half of the 19th c. That's how we've lost some of the most iconic monuments of Western civilization (I'm in particular thinking of Cluny, whose archives were burnt, manuscripts vandalized and stolen, stones parted out).
  - nunobrito 3y ago
    Well.. start by reading the aftermath of the Lisbon earthquake. The persecution took place through about a century to carefully avoid drastic events as you'd later see in France, thus reducing public opposition/outcry. Contrary to France, there was no need for "revolution" because liberals were already in power since the earthquake. More details here: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extin%C3%A7%C3%A3o_das_ordens_religiosas https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extin%C3%A7%C3%A3o_das_ordens_... (need to translate) My home town is Coimbra. The whole Rua da Sofia (Street of Knowledge) was expropriated and left to abandonment or sold for whatever other purposes without shame on the 18th century. Worse destiny had the church of São Cristovão, presumably built by the father of the first portuguese king: https://www.cm-coimbra.pt/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/coimbra.old_joomlatools-files_docman-files_Vestigios-Arqueologicos-na-Alta-de-Coimbra-Redescobrir-a-Igreja-de-S.-Cristovao.pdf https://www.cm-coimbra.pt/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/coimbra... For a political movement aimed to bring light into the masses, liberals sure dived the empire into some really dark decades that we'd never recover from afterwards.
    - VK538FY 3y ago
      Very interesting. I was not aware of this part of Portuguese history. Thank you.
throw7 3y ago
This happens all over. Here is one near me that was demolished and turned into a grocery store: https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Final-court-battle-over-Watervliet-s-St-6404089.php https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Final-court-battle-o... I just want to say it doesn't have to be this way, but it is the way it is. In this specific case, I wondered why didn't Rome help support the maintenance of it's own; but I'm not really in tune with the vagaries of how the catholic diocese work across the world.
- BitwiseFool 3y ago
  I am in no way religious, but I have a lot of respect for religious architecture. I suspect the desire to respect and glorify 'the divine' leads to designs that are aesthetically pleasing in a unique way that I can't quite describe.
  - nunobrito 3y ago
    Yes, it is common heritage. We are no different from talibans when destroying religions monuments such as Budda statues that were built by the effort/talent of previous generations. Those monuments were precious and now are gone.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Church building maintenance is a huge portion of most dioceses' expenses, and with dwindling parishes and lack of funds, they simply can't keep all of them open. Some of these beautiful buildings cost more in maintenance each year than it would be to build a newer, more modern one that was sized correctly for the current number of parishioners. Much of Europe has already gone through this; many (but not all) of the churches you can visit in Europe have significant state support because they're historical and touristic. Sometimes the diocese gets enough people interested in "saving" an old church that they can cover the maintenance for another year, decade, etc, but we're talking millions of dollars. Rome supplies some funds, but not much and they're almost always used for missionary work or charity, etc. Peter's Pence is one example: https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/obolo_spietro/documents/index_en.htm https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/obolo_s... The Catholic Church appears as one big institution run by an absolute monarch, but it is much more like a fiefdom run by local bishops with a king who can if he really works at it, depose one. And the parishes under the bishops are similarly somewhat independent. The canon laws covering it can be seen here: https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=1254-1310 https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=1254-1310 (note that the bishop "taxes" the parishes to support the diocesan activities, this is usually done as an "annual Catholic appeal" which transfers money from the rich parishes to the poor parishes, usually the ones with schools). A parish financial committee is established by https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=537 https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=537 but the pastor has some pretty powerful leeway in executing his duty as he sees fit. Even many Catholics don't realize that their favorite "old parish church" is often kept afloat by donations from one or two old parishioners. The old couple handing out donuts after Mass may be donating a million a year to keep the parish school running, and you may only ever find out if you dig into the non-profit filings. As an example, a local (well regarded) private Catholic school K-12 has $4m in tuition income, and $2m in donations, with the rest from "other" which includes selling tickets to games, merchandise, etc. Of that $7m, almost $4m goes to salaries, and about $1m to building and maintenance. Find your local parish and search for "annual report" and you can see more.
Bayart 3y ago
There's nothing of the sort in Paris. Religious and aristocratic monuments suffered tremendously between the Revolution and the early days of conservancy, but for the most part churches were given back to religious occupations once the revolutionary heat went away.
nunobrito 3y ago
That would be correct from a French-Anglo-centric point of view of the world. However, liberal Paris was archictecturally and politically powered by the aftermath of the earthquake in Lisbon: https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0ckfxtn/the-earthquake-that-changed-the-course-of-history https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0ckfxtn/the-earthquake-that-... That was the turning point which granted liberals/republicans the ruling power over the Portuguese empire and later other empired such as the French. The outcome were religious "reforms" that expropriated, razed and progressively moved to erase catholicism in favour of "enlightment". In my hometown the churches were left to rot and then "modernized" to other entertainment facilities, owned by private merchants of course. The end result was quite devastating, albeit not as bad as what you'd see happening in France afterwards.

by prox 3y ago

fein 3y ago

Judging by the name of the parent, I'd say Portugal.

VK538FY 3y ago
The French revolution took place at the end of the 18th century and I'm sure that a lot of churches in Paris (or any French city) were demolished in a big FU to God. I can't recall something similar having taken place in Portugal at the time. Or anywhere else.
- prometheus76 3y ago
  This happened everywhere that the Soviet Union "spread" to. Churches were demolished, desecrated, or burned. Some were re-purposed, but many were destroyed.
  - mistrial9 3y ago
    church politics were not entirely innocent in this either
- Bayart 3y ago
  Official anti-clericalism and state atheism lasted for a very short period of time, not nearly enough to do any damage to the churches save for surface vandalism and pillaging of the statuary, furniture etc. The great victims of the Revolution are the monasteries and the castles. The monasteries were officially dissolved (in a movement similar to what had happened in England under Henry VIII), their land redistributed and their buildings sold for stone. The same happened to aristocratic holdings and most Medieval castles that somehow managed to survive until then were destroyed over the first half of the 19th c. That's how we've lost some of the most iconic monuments of Western civilization (I'm in particular thinking of Cluny, whose archives were burnt, manuscripts vandalized and stolen, stones parted out).
- nunobrito 3y ago
  Well.. start by reading the aftermath of the Lisbon earthquake. The persecution took place through about a century to carefully avoid drastic events as you'd later see in France, thus reducing public opposition/outcry. Contrary to France, there was no need for "revolution" because liberals were already in power since the earthquake. More details here: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extin%C3%A7%C3%A3o_das_ordens_religiosas https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extin%C3%A7%C3%A3o_das_ordens_... (need to translate) My home town is Coimbra. The whole Rua da Sofia (Street of Knowledge) was expropriated and left to abandonment or sold for whatever other purposes without shame on the 18th century. Worse destiny had the church of São Cristovão, presumably built by the father of the first portuguese king: https://www.cm-coimbra.pt/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/coimbra.old_joomlatools-files_docman-files_Vestigios-Arqueologicos-na-Alta-de-Coimbra-Redescobrir-a-Igreja-de-S.-Cristovao.pdf https://www.cm-coimbra.pt/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/coimbra... For a political movement aimed to bring light into the masses, liberals sure dived the empire into some really dark decades that we'd never recover from afterwards.
  - VK538FY 3y ago
    Very interesting. I was not aware of this part of Portuguese history. Thank you.

throw7 3y ago

This happens all over. Here is one near me that was demolished and turned into a grocery store: https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Final-court-battle-over-Watervliet-s-St-6404089.php https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Final-court-battle-o... I just want to say it doesn't have to be this way, but it is the way it is. In this specific case, I wondered why didn't Rome help support the maintenance of it's own; but I'm not really in tune with the vagaries of how the catholic diocese work across the world.

BitwiseFool 3y ago
I am in no way religious, but I have a lot of respect for religious architecture. I suspect the desire to respect and glorify 'the divine' leads to designs that are aesthetically pleasing in a unique way that I can't quite describe.
- nunobrito 3y ago
  Yes, it is common heritage. We are no different from talibans when destroying religions monuments such as Budda statues that were built by the effort/talent of previous generations. Those monuments were precious and now are gone.
bombcar 3y ago
Church building maintenance is a huge portion of most dioceses' expenses, and with dwindling parishes and lack of funds, they simply can't keep all of them open. Some of these beautiful buildings cost more in maintenance each year than it would be to build a newer, more modern one that was sized correctly for the current number of parishioners. Much of Europe has already gone through this; many (but not all) of the churches you can visit in Europe have significant state support because they're historical and touristic. Sometimes the diocese gets enough people interested in "saving" an old church that they can cover the maintenance for another year, decade, etc, but we're talking millions of dollars. Rome supplies some funds, but not much and they're almost always used for missionary work or charity, etc. Peter's Pence is one example: https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/obolo_spietro/documents/index_en.htm https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/obolo_s... The Catholic Church appears as one big institution run by an absolute monarch, but it is much more like a fiefdom run by local bishops with a king who can if he really works at it, depose one. And the parishes under the bishops are similarly somewhat independent. The canon laws covering it can be seen here: https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=1254-1310 https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=1254-1310 (note that the bishop "taxes" the parishes to support the diocesan activities, this is usually done as an "annual Catholic appeal" which transfers money from the rich parishes to the poor parishes, usually the ones with schools). A parish financial committee is established by https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=537 https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=537 but the pastor has some pretty powerful leeway in executing his duty as he sees fit. Even many Catholics don't realize that their favorite "old parish church" is often kept afloat by donations from one or two old parishioners. The old couple handing out donuts after Mass may be donating a million a year to keep the parish school running, and you may only ever find out if you dig into the non-profit filings. As an example, a local (well regarded) private Catholic school K-12 has $4m in tuition income, and $2m in donations, with the rest from "other" which includes selling tickets to games, merchandise, etc. Of that $7m, almost $4m goes to salaries, and about $1m to building and maintenance. Find your local parish and search for "annual report" and you can see more.

Bayart 3y ago

There's nothing of the sort in Paris. Religious and aristocratic monuments suffered tremendously between the Revolution and the early days of conservancy, but for the most part churches were given back to religious occupations once the revolutionary heat went away.

nunobrito 3y ago

That would be correct from a French-Anglo-centric point of view of the world. However, liberal Paris was archictecturally and politically powered by the aftermath of the earthquake in Lisbon: https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0ckfxtn/the-earthquake-that-changed-the-course-of-history https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0ckfxtn/the-earthquake-that-... That was the turning point which granted liberals/republicans the ruling power over the Portuguese empire and later other empired such as the French. The outcome were religious "reforms" that expropriated, razed and progressively moved to erase catholicism in favour of "enlightment". In my hometown the churches were left to rot and then "modernized" to other entertainment facilities, owned by private merchants of course. The end result was quite devastating, albeit not as bad as what you'd see happening in France afterwards.