4 ms·

I love smoky old churches. Sadly so many of them (especially in off-the-beaten-path places) were constructed with wood and various accidents (candles, short-cir

by nickpp 3y ago

I love smoky old churches. Sadly so many of them (especially in off-the-beaten-path places) were constructed with wood and various accidents (candles, short-circuits) burned them to the ground. Not the same even if fully reconstructed...

nunobrito 3y ago
In my home town many churches from the 11th century to the 16th century got razed to the ground to build theaters or converted into shopping malls by liberals in the 18th century. It was done in the name of rationality since religion does not exist for them, meant to free the people from gods. As end result, those theaters were private and got abandoned. Those shopping malls are now the new churches of a society that now instead of worshiping a god in heavens is worshiping the god of money. It would have been saner to respect old churches and preserve our patrimony/cultural heritage.
- prox 3y ago
  Is this Paris? Only city I could think of with your description. Because there were no shopping malls in the 18th century. The precursor to shopping malls were bazaars which are very old. So that part of your comment seems not chronologically and terminology accurate.
  - fein 3y ago
    Judging by the name of the parent, I'd say Portugal.
    - VK538FY 3y ago
      The French revolution took place at the end of the 18th century and I'm sure that a lot of churches in Paris (or any French city) were demolished in a big FU to God. I can't recall something similar having taken place in Portugal at the time. Or anywhere else.
      - prometheus76 3y ago
        This happened everywhere that the Soviet Union "spread" to. Churches were demolished, desecrated, or burned. Some were re-purposed, but many were destroyed.
        mistrial9 3y ago
        church politics were not entirely innocent in this either
      - Bayart 3y ago
        Official anti-clericalism and state atheism lasted for a very short period of time, not nearly enough to do any damage to the churches save for surface vandalism and pillaging of the statuary, furniture etc. The great victims of the Revolution are the monasteries and the castles. The monasteries were officially dissolved (in a movement similar to what had happened in England under Henry VIII), their land redistributed and their buildings sold for stone. The same happened to aristocratic holdings and most Medieval castles that somehow managed to survive until then were destroyed over the first half of the 19th c. That's how we've lost some of the most iconic monuments of Western civilization (I'm in particular thinking of Cluny, whose archives were burnt, manuscripts vandalized and stolen, stones parted out).
      - nunobrito 3y ago
        Well.. start by reading the aftermath of the Lisbon earthquake. The persecution took place through about a century to carefully avoid drastic events as you'd later see in France, thus reducing public opposition/outcry. Contrary to France, there was no need for "revolution" because liberals were already in power since the earthquake. More details here: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extin%C3%A7%C3%A3o_das_ordens_religiosas https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extin%C3%A7%C3%A3o_das_ordens_... (need to translate) My home town is Coimbra. The whole Rua da Sofia (Street of Knowledge) was expropriated and left to abandonment or sold for whatever other purposes without shame on the 18th century. Worse destiny had the church of São Cristovão, presumably built by the father of the first portuguese king: https://www.cm-coimbra.pt/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/coimbra.old_joomlatools-files_docman-files_Vestigios-Arqueologicos-na-Alta-de-Coimbra-Redescobrir-a-Igreja-de-S.-Cristovao.pdf https://www.cm-coimbra.pt/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/coimbra... For a political movement aimed to bring light into the masses, liberals sure dived the empire into some really dark decades that we'd never recover from afterwards.
  - throw7 3y ago
    This happens all over. Here is one near me that was demolished and turned into a grocery store: https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Final-court-battle-over-Watervliet-s-St-6404089.php https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Final-court-battle-o... I just want to say it doesn't have to be this way, but it is the way it is. In this specific case, I wondered why didn't Rome help support the maintenance of it's own; but I'm not really in tune with the vagaries of how the catholic diocese work across the world.
    - BitwiseFool 3y ago
      I am in no way religious, but I have a lot of respect for religious architecture. I suspect the desire to respect and glorify 'the divine' leads to designs that are aesthetically pleasing in a unique way that I can't quite describe.
      - nunobrito 3y ago
        Yes, it is common heritage. We are no different from talibans when destroying religions monuments such as Budda statues that were built by the effort/talent of previous generations. Those monuments were precious and now are gone.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Church building maintenance is a huge portion of most dioceses' expenses, and with dwindling parishes and lack of funds, they simply can't keep all of them open. Some of these beautiful buildings cost more in maintenance each year than it would be to build a newer, more modern one that was sized correctly for the current number of parishioners. Much of Europe has already gone through this; many (but not all) of the churches you can visit in Europe have significant state support because they're historical and touristic. Sometimes the diocese gets enough people interested in "saving" an old church that they can cover the maintenance for another year, decade, etc, but we're talking millions of dollars. Rome supplies some funds, but not much and they're almost always used for missionary work or charity, etc. Peter's Pence is one example: https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/obolo_spietro/documents/index_en.htm https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/obolo_s... The Catholic Church appears as one big institution run by an absolute monarch, but it is much more like a fiefdom run by local bishops with a king who can if he really works at it, depose one. And the parishes under the bishops are similarly somewhat independent. The canon laws covering it can be seen here: https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=1254-1310 https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=1254-1310 (note that the bishop "taxes" the parishes to support the diocesan activities, this is usually done as an "annual Catholic appeal" which transfers money from the rich parishes to the poor parishes, usually the ones with schools). A parish financial committee is established by https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=537 https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=537 but the pastor has some pretty powerful leeway in executing his duty as he sees fit. Even many Catholics don't realize that their favorite "old parish church" is often kept afloat by donations from one or two old parishioners. The old couple handing out donuts after Mass may be donating a million a year to keep the parish school running, and you may only ever find out if you dig into the non-profit filings. As an example, a local (well regarded) private Catholic school K-12 has $4m in tuition income, and $2m in donations, with the rest from "other" which includes selling tickets to games, merchandise, etc. Of that $7m, almost $4m goes to salaries, and about $1m to building and maintenance. Find your local parish and search for "annual report" and you can see more.
  - Bayart 3y ago
    There's nothing of the sort in Paris. Religious and aristocratic monuments suffered tremendously between the Revolution and the early days of conservancy, but for the most part churches were given back to religious occupations once the revolutionary heat went away.
  - nunobrito 3y ago
    That would be correct from a French-Anglo-centric point of view of the world. However, liberal Paris was archictecturally and politically powered by the aftermath of the earthquake in Lisbon: https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0ckfxtn/the-earthquake-that-changed-the-course-of-history https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0ckfxtn/the-earthquake-that-... That was the turning point which granted liberals/republicans the ruling power over the Portuguese empire and later other empired such as the French. The outcome were religious "reforms" that expropriated, razed and progressively moved to erase catholicism in favour of "enlightment". In my hometown the churches were left to rot and then "modernized" to other entertainment facilities, owned by private merchants of course. The end result was quite devastating, albeit not as bad as what you'd see happening in France afterwards.
digikazi 3y ago
I do as well, which is why when I went to Athens for two weeks last September, I very much looked forward to lots of smoky old orthodox churches. Alas, it wasn't to be: the vast majority of churches I saw looked brand new and as if they had been designed by MacDonald's. Clearly the church has money - and the imagination/vision of petty shopkeepers.
- riffraff 3y ago
  AFAIU most big churches in Athens were converted to mosques during the ottoman empire, and then they were destroyed rather than being converted back. The only ones that survived are the small ones which were never converted, and which you can still find around the city.
  - imbnwa 3y ago
    Wonder how many of those surviving churches were themselves erected atop the ashes of a non-Abrahamic site of worship and/or sacrifice
petre 3y ago
Some of the old Saxon fortified churches, like Biertan for instance are in the Unesco heritage fund. There is also one in Viscri where King Charles is expected to visit in two weeks or so. He has a holiday home there and it seems that he has quite enjoyed the place for some time. Of course everything is fully booked now. The authorities have recently closed the village to motor vehicles, in order to protect it and preserve its beauty. You could visit if you ever get the chance. I think the last week of July or the first week of August is the Haferland Week¹ in the area, if you also want to get a taste of local traditions. In Biertan there was a horror movie film festival in August, called Full Moon, but it was paused, then delayed due to the pandemic. Valea Viilor has a other Unesco fortified church that is lesser known but no less spectacular. It's close to Medias, where the manuscripts were found. The other places that are not in the heritage fund are rather sleepy and you have to go on a quest for the keeper of the keys to the church. We had a week long summer project to photograph these churches in 2004. 1. https://haferland.ro/en/the-haferland-week/ https://haferland.ro/en/the-haferland-week/

by nickpp 3y ago

nunobrito 3y ago

In my home town many churches from the 11th century to the 16th century got razed to the ground to build theaters or converted into shopping malls by liberals in the 18th century. It was done in the name of rationality since religion does not exist for them, meant to free the people from gods. As end result, those theaters were private and got abandoned. Those shopping malls are now the new churches of a society that now instead of worshiping a god in heavens is worshiping the god of money. It would have been saner to respect old churches and preserve our patrimony/cultural heritage.

prox 3y ago
Is this Paris? Only city I could think of with your description. Because there were no shopping malls in the 18th century. The precursor to shopping malls were bazaars which are very old. So that part of your comment seems not chronologically and terminology accurate.
- fein 3y ago
  Judging by the name of the parent, I'd say Portugal.
  - VK538FY 3y ago
    The French revolution took place at the end of the 18th century and I'm sure that a lot of churches in Paris (or any French city) were demolished in a big FU to God. I can't recall something similar having taken place in Portugal at the time. Or anywhere else.
    - prometheus76 3y ago
      This happened everywhere that the Soviet Union "spread" to. Churches were demolished, desecrated, or burned. Some were re-purposed, but many were destroyed.
      - mistrial9 3y ago
        church politics were not entirely innocent in this either
    - Bayart 3y ago
      Official anti-clericalism and state atheism lasted for a very short period of time, not nearly enough to do any damage to the churches save for surface vandalism and pillaging of the statuary, furniture etc. The great victims of the Revolution are the monasteries and the castles. The monasteries were officially dissolved (in a movement similar to what had happened in England under Henry VIII), their land redistributed and their buildings sold for stone. The same happened to aristocratic holdings and most Medieval castles that somehow managed to survive until then were destroyed over the first half of the 19th c. That's how we've lost some of the most iconic monuments of Western civilization (I'm in particular thinking of Cluny, whose archives were burnt, manuscripts vandalized and stolen, stones parted out).
    - nunobrito 3y ago
      Well.. start by reading the aftermath of the Lisbon earthquake. The persecution took place through about a century to carefully avoid drastic events as you'd later see in France, thus reducing public opposition/outcry. Contrary to France, there was no need for "revolution" because liberals were already in power since the earthquake. More details here: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extin%C3%A7%C3%A3o_das_ordens_religiosas https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extin%C3%A7%C3%A3o_das_ordens_... (need to translate) My home town is Coimbra. The whole Rua da Sofia (Street of Knowledge) was expropriated and left to abandonment or sold for whatever other purposes without shame on the 18th century. Worse destiny had the church of São Cristovão, presumably built by the father of the first portuguese king: https://www.cm-coimbra.pt/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/coimbra.old_joomlatools-files_docman-files_Vestigios-Arqueologicos-na-Alta-de-Coimbra-Redescobrir-a-Igreja-de-S.-Cristovao.pdf https://www.cm-coimbra.pt/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/coimbra... For a political movement aimed to bring light into the masses, liberals sure dived the empire into some really dark decades that we'd never recover from afterwards.
- throw7 3y ago
  This happens all over. Here is one near me that was demolished and turned into a grocery store: https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Final-court-battle-over-Watervliet-s-St-6404089.php https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Final-court-battle-o... I just want to say it doesn't have to be this way, but it is the way it is. In this specific case, I wondered why didn't Rome help support the maintenance of it's own; but I'm not really in tune with the vagaries of how the catholic diocese work across the world.
  - BitwiseFool 3y ago
    I am in no way religious, but I have a lot of respect for religious architecture. I suspect the desire to respect and glorify 'the divine' leads to designs that are aesthetically pleasing in a unique way that I can't quite describe.
    - nunobrito 3y ago
      Yes, it is common heritage. We are no different from talibans when destroying religions monuments such as Budda statues that were built by the effort/talent of previous generations. Those monuments were precious and now are gone.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Church building maintenance is a huge portion of most dioceses' expenses, and with dwindling parishes and lack of funds, they simply can't keep all of them open. Some of these beautiful buildings cost more in maintenance each year than it would be to build a newer, more modern one that was sized correctly for the current number of parishioners. Much of Europe has already gone through this; many (but not all) of the churches you can visit in Europe have significant state support because they're historical and touristic. Sometimes the diocese gets enough people interested in "saving" an old church that they can cover the maintenance for another year, decade, etc, but we're talking millions of dollars. Rome supplies some funds, but not much and they're almost always used for missionary work or charity, etc. Peter's Pence is one example: https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/obolo_spietro/documents/index_en.htm https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/obolo_s... The Catholic Church appears as one big institution run by an absolute monarch, but it is much more like a fiefdom run by local bishops with a king who can if he really works at it, depose one. And the parishes under the bishops are similarly somewhat independent. The canon laws covering it can be seen here: https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=1254-1310 https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=1254-1310 (note that the bishop "taxes" the parishes to support the diocesan activities, this is usually done as an "annual Catholic appeal" which transfers money from the rich parishes to the poor parishes, usually the ones with schools). A parish financial committee is established by https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=537 https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=537 but the pastor has some pretty powerful leeway in executing his duty as he sees fit. Even many Catholics don't realize that their favorite "old parish church" is often kept afloat by donations from one or two old parishioners. The old couple handing out donuts after Mass may be donating a million a year to keep the parish school running, and you may only ever find out if you dig into the non-profit filings. As an example, a local (well regarded) private Catholic school K-12 has $4m in tuition income, and $2m in donations, with the rest from "other" which includes selling tickets to games, merchandise, etc. Of that $7m, almost $4m goes to salaries, and about $1m to building and maintenance. Find your local parish and search for "annual report" and you can see more.
- Bayart 3y ago
  There's nothing of the sort in Paris. Religious and aristocratic monuments suffered tremendously between the Revolution and the early days of conservancy, but for the most part churches were given back to religious occupations once the revolutionary heat went away.
- nunobrito 3y ago
  That would be correct from a French-Anglo-centric point of view of the world. However, liberal Paris was archictecturally and politically powered by the aftermath of the earthquake in Lisbon: https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0ckfxtn/the-earthquake-that-changed-the-course-of-history https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0ckfxtn/the-earthquake-that-... That was the turning point which granted liberals/republicans the ruling power over the Portuguese empire and later other empired such as the French. The outcome were religious "reforms" that expropriated, razed and progressively moved to erase catholicism in favour of "enlightment". In my hometown the churches were left to rot and then "modernized" to other entertainment facilities, owned by private merchants of course. The end result was quite devastating, albeit not as bad as what you'd see happening in France afterwards.

digikazi 3y ago

I do as well, which is why when I went to Athens for two weeks last September, I very much looked forward to lots of smoky old orthodox churches. Alas, it wasn't to be: the vast majority of churches I saw looked brand new and as if they had been designed by MacDonald's. Clearly the church has money - and the imagination/vision of petty shopkeepers.

riffraff 3y ago
AFAIU most big churches in Athens were converted to mosques during the ottoman empire, and then they were destroyed rather than being converted back. The only ones that survived are the small ones which were never converted, and which you can still find around the city.
- imbnwa 3y ago
  Wonder how many of those surviving churches were themselves erected atop the ashes of a non-Abrahamic site of worship and/or sacrifice

petre 3y ago

Some of the old Saxon fortified churches, like Biertan for instance are in the Unesco heritage fund. There is also one in Viscri where King Charles is expected to visit in two weeks or so. He has a holiday home there and it seems that he has quite enjoyed the place for some time. Of course everything is fully booked now. The authorities have recently closed the village to motor vehicles, in order to protect it and preserve its beauty. You could visit if you ever get the chance. I think the last week of July or the first week of August is the Haferland Week¹ in the area, if you also want to get a taste of local traditions. In Biertan there was a horror movie film festival in August, called Full Moon, but it was paused, then delayed due to the pandemic. Valea Viilor has a other Unesco fortified church that is lesser known but no less spectacular. It's close to Medias, where the manuscripts were found. The other places that are not in the heritage fund are rather sleepy and you have to go on a quest for the keeper of the keys to the church. We had a week long summer project to photograph these churches in 2004. 1. https://haferland.ro/en/the-haferland-week/ https://haferland.ro/en/the-haferland-week/