5 ms·

The Patriot has a very high failure rate and isn't all it's cracked up to be. https://veteransbreakfastclub.org/scuds-vs-patriots-desert-storm-1991/ https://ve

The Patriot has a very high failure rate and isn't all it's cracked up to be. https://veteransbreakfastclub.org/scuds-vs-patriots-desert-storm-1991/ https://veteransbreakfastclub.org/scuds-vs-patriots-desert-s... https://www.gao.gov/products/t-nsiad-92-27 https://www.gao.gov/products/t-nsiad-92-27

jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
That was 3 decades ago, and before PAC-3.
bahmboo 3y ago
Those are 30 year old documents. Much like everything else the patriot technology has advanced a lot since then.
- Animatronio 3y ago
  Alright, here's a more recent one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Riyadh_missile_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Riyadh_missile_strike "However, according to Jeffrey Lewis, director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program at CNS, the Saudis failed to intercept the missiles following a malfunction of the MIM-104 Patriot system.[3] One video appeared to show a Patriot missile launch on Sunday night go rapidly wrong, with the missile changing course midair, crashing into a neighborhood in Riyadh and exploding. Another appeared to detonate shortly after being launched in the Saudi capital. " Pretty much the same failure mode as 30 years ago I would say, so maybe those ancient documents are still relevant today.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    We’re watching a hot war where old PATRIOT batteries are downing Russia’s newest missiles. Given that context, this looks more like user error by the Saudis than any shortcomings of the system.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
    Also a poor example. The Saudi's are infamous for extremely poor training and readiness in there military forces. This is how they lost Abrams tanks in Yemen in a way that would never happen to US forces.
- pydry 3y ago
  Apparently Ukraine fired a volley of 30 patriots last week and the Kinzhal still got through. That's 10% of all patriots manufactured in 1 year.
  - boc 3y ago
    What are you talking about? Russia launched Kinzhal missiles as part of a larger saturation attack on Kyiv earlier this month and they were all successfully intercepted by the US Patriot system, operated by Ukraine. One piece of debris hit a Patriot radar, but no systems were lost.[1][2] The Russians also arrested the scientists who helped develop the Kinzhal and charged them with treason due to the apparent failure during this attack.[3] Not something you usually do if your weapon system is successful. [1] https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-patriot-kinzhal-6b59af8e60853b4d6d16dd8d607768be https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-patriot-kinzha... [2]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-05-06/ukraine-says-it-shot-down-russian-kinzhal-missile-for-first-time?leadSource=uverify%20wall https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-05-06/ukraine-s... [3] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-hypersonic-missile-scientists-arrested-treason-patriots-ukraine-rcna84857 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-hypersonic-missile...
    - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
      You're wrong on that second part. The arrests happened before the strike. I'm disappointed how many media outlets obscured this point in favor of the narrative.
      - Prickle 3y ago
        No, that is wrong too. Arrests happened previously, and then 3 additional individuals were arrested after the most recent attack. In total, there are currently 16 individuals related to the program who have been arrested. 3 of them are facing life in prison for treason.
      - pydry 3y ago
        He's wrong on all parts. The arrests were about the technology being leaked to the Chinese, the "kinzhal missile" the notoriously unreliable Klitschko is proudly standing next to in the NBC photos he linked to is a BETAB 500. The Ukrainian air force itself even denied that any Kinzhals had been shot down: https://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-air-force-denies-reports-132000149.html https://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-air-force-denies-reports-13...
kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
PAC3 is a completely different and physically smaller missile.
- Animatronio 3y ago
  Yet they're not that much better. Per Wikipedia (I have edited out successful intercepts!): Syrian civil war (2014–) {...} In July 2016, two Israeli Patriot missiles missed an incoming drone launched from Syria, according to Russian media. Israeli Air Defence Command fired two Patriot missiles, but they did not manage to destroy the target. Russia Today stated that the drone penetrated four kilometers into Israeli airspace, and then flew back into Syria. In June 2018, a single Israeli Patriot missile was fired toward a drone which was approaching Israel from Syria. The missile missed its target, and the drone turned back to Syria. Service with Saudi Arabia In March 2018, another missile, apparently fired from Yemen, was intercepted by a Patriot missile over Riyadh. Missile experts via news agencies cast doubt on the effectiveness of the Saudi Arabian Patriot defense. According to videos, one interceptor exploded just after launch and another did a "U turn" midair toward Riyadh. In September 2019, the six battalions of Patriot missile defense systems owned by Saudi Arabia failed to protect its oil facilities from attacks by multiple drones and suspected cruise missiles during the Abqaiq–Khurais attack.
  - greedo 3y ago
    I think it's important to bear in mind that the Saudi defense forces for decades have been show forces; they buy expensive gear, then fail to maintain and train on it.
    - Animatronio 3y ago
      Yes, so I've read but still the Patriot they lost to a Houthi drone strike was recently bought from Greece, so I think it was fairly new and well maintained.
      - greedo 3y ago
        The equipment may be fine and up to date (though missile versions vary widely), but that doesn't mean the operators are up to snuff.

jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago

That was 3 decades ago, and before PAC-3.

bahmboo 3y ago

Those are 30 year old documents. Much like everything else the patriot technology has advanced a lot since then.

Animatronio 3y ago
Alright, here's a more recent one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Riyadh_missile_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Riyadh_missile_strike "However, according to Jeffrey Lewis, director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program at CNS, the Saudis failed to intercept the missiles following a malfunction of the MIM-104 Patriot system.[3] One video appeared to show a Patriot missile launch on Sunday night go rapidly wrong, with the missile changing course midair, crashing into a neighborhood in Riyadh and exploding. Another appeared to detonate shortly after being launched in the Saudi capital. " Pretty much the same failure mode as 30 years ago I would say, so maybe those ancient documents are still relevant today.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  We’re watching a hot war where old PATRIOT batteries are downing Russia’s newest missiles. Given that context, this looks more like user error by the Saudis than any shortcomings of the system.
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
  Also a poor example. The Saudi's are infamous for extremely poor training and readiness in there military forces. This is how they lost Abrams tanks in Yemen in a way that would never happen to US forces.
pydry 3y ago
Apparently Ukraine fired a volley of 30 patriots last week and the Kinzhal still got through. That's 10% of all patriots manufactured in 1 year.
- boc 3y ago
  What are you talking about? Russia launched Kinzhal missiles as part of a larger saturation attack on Kyiv earlier this month and they were all successfully intercepted by the US Patriot system, operated by Ukraine. One piece of debris hit a Patriot radar, but no systems were lost.[1][2] The Russians also arrested the scientists who helped develop the Kinzhal and charged them with treason due to the apparent failure during this attack.[3] Not something you usually do if your weapon system is successful. [1] https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-patriot-kinzhal-6b59af8e60853b4d6d16dd8d607768be https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-patriot-kinzha... [2]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-05-06/ukraine-says-it-shot-down-russian-kinzhal-missile-for-first-time?leadSource=uverify%20wall https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-05-06/ukraine-s... [3] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-hypersonic-missile-scientists-arrested-treason-patriots-ukraine-rcna84857 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-hypersonic-missile...
  - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
    You're wrong on that second part. The arrests happened before the strike. I'm disappointed how many media outlets obscured this point in favor of the narrative.
    - Prickle 3y ago
      No, that is wrong too. Arrests happened previously, and then 3 additional individuals were arrested after the most recent attack. In total, there are currently 16 individuals related to the program who have been arrested. 3 of them are facing life in prison for treason.
    - pydry 3y ago
      He's wrong on all parts. The arrests were about the technology being leaked to the Chinese, the "kinzhal missile" the notoriously unreliable Klitschko is proudly standing next to in the NBC photos he linked to is a BETAB 500. The Ukrainian air force itself even denied that any Kinzhals had been shot down: https://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-air-force-denies-reports-132000149.html https://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-air-force-denies-reports-13...

kevin_thibedeau 3y ago

PAC3 is a completely different and physically smaller missile.

Animatronio 3y ago
Yet they're not that much better. Per Wikipedia (I have edited out successful intercepts!): Syrian civil war (2014–) {...} In July 2016, two Israeli Patriot missiles missed an incoming drone launched from Syria, according to Russian media. Israeli Air Defence Command fired two Patriot missiles, but they did not manage to destroy the target. Russia Today stated that the drone penetrated four kilometers into Israeli airspace, and then flew back into Syria. In June 2018, a single Israeli Patriot missile was fired toward a drone which was approaching Israel from Syria. The missile missed its target, and the drone turned back to Syria. Service with Saudi Arabia In March 2018, another missile, apparently fired from Yemen, was intercepted by a Patriot missile over Riyadh. Missile experts via news agencies cast doubt on the effectiveness of the Saudi Arabian Patriot defense. According to videos, one interceptor exploded just after launch and another did a "U turn" midair toward Riyadh. In September 2019, the six battalions of Patriot missile defense systems owned by Saudi Arabia failed to protect its oil facilities from attacks by multiple drones and suspected cruise missiles during the Abqaiq–Khurais attack.
- greedo 3y ago
  I think it's important to bear in mind that the Saudi defense forces for decades have been show forces; they buy expensive gear, then fail to maintain and train on it.
  - Animatronio 3y ago
    Yes, so I've read but still the Patriot they lost to a Houthi drone strike was recently bought from Greece, so I think it was fairly new and well maintained.
    - greedo 3y ago
      The equipment may be fine and up to date (though missile versions vary widely), but that doesn't mean the operators are up to snuff.