6 ms·

Just a century or two ago parents would bury half of their children at a young age. The heaven is now.

by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago

jacquesm 3y ago
That did not make it any less of a tragedy.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  Depends on what you mean. The past is a different country; they do things differently there. Judging attitudes of the ancients from our current situation may lead to self-deception. At least some people grow callous in face of ubiquitous dangers. Otherwise people would not be able to fight in wars or survive in pre-modern cities where mortality from diseases now considered banal was actually comparable to a constant low-intensity war. A lot of ancient societies did not even consider infants as people until they reached certain age, precisely because their chance of death was too high. If you experience something 7 or 10 times and most other people around you do as well, you will get used to it. We are just built that way. It sounds horrible to a modern person and may attract some downvotes, but premature death was omnipresent and, as such, probably less of a tragedy than today. Looking at the old folk songs etc., their lyrics often do mention happy/unhappy love, or complicated relations with parents or the nobility, but rarely deaths in the family. If someone's death is mentioned in a folk song, it is often a young soldier - a valuable person (strong, suitable for agricultural tasks) whose life was unnecessarily wasted. Plus, the societies back then were way more religious than today, and eternal life was considered a given. This is yet another thing we mostly cannot fathom today, especially hard-core engineering skeptics here on the HN, but people in the past really did believe their own religion and it helped them with their grief.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    My grandmother lost a child, an aunt that had serious issues (Down syndrome) that died when she was still quite young. In spite of the other 9 kids that she had this was the one that was most on her mind and I doubt she ever really got over it. I know a few other stories like that, from that same era, ~ 100 years ago now. And I do not know any counterexamples that showed people took the loss of a child less serious back then, or that it was less of a tragedy. I can't look back further into history from first hand. But 100 years ago the feelings seemed to be much the same that they are today. Chances are that further back in the past that you were right and that had different attitudes but that may have to be much further back.
    - inglor_cz 3y ago
      I was thinking of a more distant past, like prior to 1700 or 1800 in the West, when 8 kids dying young and 2 surviving into adulthood was an unsurprising count. It must have felt normal in Constantinople or Rome. I think it works both ways. Some day in the future, ordinary people won't believe how we, inhabitants of the early 21st century, would just somehow psychologically accept dying before turning 120.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Ok, that makes it indeed much more common. And the plague years were especially bad in that respect, whole villages wiped out. I'm not sure about living to 120, if you could do it with body and mind of a 45 year old I'd say bring it on but otherwise I think I'd pass.

Just a century or two ago parents would bury half of their children at a young age. The heaven is now.

jacquesm 3y ago

That did not make it any less of a tragedy.

inglor_cz 3y ago
Depends on what you mean. The past is a different country; they do things differently there. Judging attitudes of the ancients from our current situation may lead to self-deception. At least some people grow callous in face of ubiquitous dangers. Otherwise people would not be able to fight in wars or survive in pre-modern cities where mortality from diseases now considered banal was actually comparable to a constant low-intensity war. A lot of ancient societies did not even consider infants as people until they reached certain age, precisely because their chance of death was too high. If you experience something 7 or 10 times and most other people around you do as well, you will get used to it. We are just built that way. It sounds horrible to a modern person and may attract some downvotes, but premature death was omnipresent and, as such, probably less of a tragedy than today. Looking at the old folk songs etc., their lyrics often do mention happy/unhappy love, or complicated relations with parents or the nobility, but rarely deaths in the family. If someone's death is mentioned in a folk song, it is often a young soldier - a valuable person (strong, suitable for agricultural tasks) whose life was unnecessarily wasted. Plus, the societies back then were way more religious than today, and eternal life was considered a given. This is yet another thing we mostly cannot fathom today, especially hard-core engineering skeptics here on the HN, but people in the past really did believe their own religion and it helped them with their grief.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  My grandmother lost a child, an aunt that had serious issues (Down syndrome) that died when she was still quite young. In spite of the other 9 kids that she had this was the one that was most on her mind and I doubt she ever really got over it. I know a few other stories like that, from that same era, ~ 100 years ago now. And I do not know any counterexamples that showed people took the loss of a child less serious back then, or that it was less of a tragedy. I can't look back further into history from first hand. But 100 years ago the feelings seemed to be much the same that they are today. Chances are that further back in the past that you were right and that had different attitudes but that may have to be much further back.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    I was thinking of a more distant past, like prior to 1700 or 1800 in the West, when 8 kids dying young and 2 surviving into adulthood was an unsurprising count. It must have felt normal in Constantinople or Rome. I think it works both ways. Some day in the future, ordinary people won't believe how we, inhabitants of the early 21st century, would just somehow psychologically accept dying before turning 120.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Ok, that makes it indeed much more common. And the plague years were especially bad in that respect, whole villages wiped out. I'm not sure about living to 120, if you could do it with body and mind of a 45 year old I'd say bring it on but otherwise I think I'd pass.