4 ms·

You clearly do care very much about other people's personal choices, and you're not shy about calling them immoral if they come to different conclusions about,

You clearly do care very much about other people's personal choices, and you're not shy about calling them immoral if they come to different conclusions about, say, finding a life balance between between time, money, and minimizing externalities. In your mind, my willingness to use an extra pint of gas each month in order to have more time for my family indicates that I don't "generally care about other people". That makes me sad. I'm curious: how do you feel my monthly pint of gas compares to your pet dog's consumption of food resources, including the environmental destruction of factory-farmed meat, packaging waste, and transportation costs?

scoofy 3y ago
I'm not going to participate in this nonsense nerd sniping. I don't have a dog. I think other forms of environmental destruction can be relevant in general, but generally irrelevant to any discussion of climate change. I think it's perfectly sensible to be concerned about climate impact on a macro scale and for people to make reasonable trade offs. I don't think "car=bad", only that in many areas (including where I live in CA) it's the highest single-source of greenhouse gas emissions, so it should be paid the appropriate amount of attention to.
- nate_meurer 3y ago
  > I don't have a dog. Ok, that's funny! Sorry, your girlfriend's dog, with whom you live, and on whose behalf you seek to move nearer to a dog park. > generally irrelevant to any discussion of climate change. You think the factory-farmed meat that your girlfriend's dog consumes is irrelevant to climate change? If not, then I'll reiterate my question: how do you feel my monthly pint of gas compares to your girlfriend's dog's consumption of resources?
  - scoofy 3y ago
    The concept that you think that I can't have an opinion about things without having zero emissions is obviously ridiculous. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion about the systematic sources of GHGs, and then am just getting whataboutism deflection in every response. I do think GHG heavy meat-consumption that is associated with climate change should be disincentivized just as much as I think GHG heavy fuel-consumption should be. If you want to keep asking me to make arbitrary GHG comparisons (that only a PHD researcher would be able to accurately calculate), then I'm not going to respond. Whataboutism is only an effective rhetorical device if your intentions are in bad-faith.
    - nate_meurer 3y ago
      > you think that I can't have an opinion about things without having zero emissions I neither said nor implied that, and in fact I'm saying the opposite. You absolutely have a right to your moralizing regardless of your GHG emissions. > I do think GHG heavy meat-consumption that is associated with climate change should be disincentivized just as much as I think GHG heavy fuel-consumption should be. Well thank God, I thought it was just me. FWIW I also have family members who are dogs, and I spent countless hours developing a vegetarian dog food recipe, and I spend countless more making the shit. I learned the AAFCO guidelines (which are woefully inadequate IMO), and made a spreadsheet to make sure my dogs get what they need from calcium to taurine. I, my wife, and my kids are all vegetarians, and my kids were horrifed to learn how many animals have to die to feed our pets. > Whataboutism is only an effective rhetorical device if your intentions are in bad-faith. If I were pointing out hypocrisy only to justify my own life choices, then that would qualify as whataboutism. But I assure you that's not the case. I personally find factory animal farming to be the nearly the most repugnant, immoral thing that humans do. But I also understand that not everyone wants to spend a chunk of their life making vegetarian dog food, so I'm not about to accuse you and your girlfriend of immorality if you make different choices.
      - scoofy 3y ago
        >I personally find factory animal farming to be the nearly the most repugnant, immoral thing that humans do. I certainly agree with you there. It's good to find some common ground. I think there are perfectly good reasons for you to hold moral views over my decisions. I do think that moralizing isn't effective, I just think that if we have a systemic problem, which I believe that GHG emissions is, than making it more painful to participate in that system is an effective way to stop people from accidentally participating. The entire point of this discussion is that the convenience and affordability of suburbia and sprawl is part of it's proliferation, and systematization (similar to consuming factory-farmed foods). It sensible for us, if we care about these issues, to want to change the convenience and affordability itself because they create path dependencies. You can very sensibly swap your automobiles' carbon footprint with a vegetarian lifestyle. The problem is that by being a stakeholder in the automobile-first system, it's important to be politically active in making that system less affordable and convenient to begin with. It's definitely possible to do, even with misaligned incentives (lord knows I've got some strange behaviors considering my views), but abstinence-only in a systemically broken system is merely a symbolic change. Edit: my girlfriend (who happens to be vegetarian) said "I would like to know more" about your vegetarian dog food. If you have a website or anything about it I will pass it along.

scoofy 3y ago

I'm not going to participate in this nonsense nerd sniping. I don't have a dog. I think other forms of environmental destruction can be relevant in general, but generally irrelevant to any discussion of climate change. I think it's perfectly sensible to be concerned about climate impact on a macro scale and for people to make reasonable trade offs. I don't think "car=bad", only that in many areas (including where I live in CA) it's the highest single-source of greenhouse gas emissions, so it should be paid the appropriate amount of attention to.

nate_meurer 3y ago
> I don't have a dog. Ok, that's funny! Sorry, your girlfriend's dog, with whom you live, and on whose behalf you seek to move nearer to a dog park. > generally irrelevant to any discussion of climate change. You think the factory-farmed meat that your girlfriend's dog consumes is irrelevant to climate change? If not, then I'll reiterate my question: how do you feel my monthly pint of gas compares to your girlfriend's dog's consumption of resources?
- scoofy 3y ago
  The concept that you think that I can't have an opinion about things without having zero emissions is obviously ridiculous. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion about the systematic sources of GHGs, and then am just getting whataboutism deflection in every response. I do think GHG heavy meat-consumption that is associated with climate change should be disincentivized just as much as I think GHG heavy fuel-consumption should be. If you want to keep asking me to make arbitrary GHG comparisons (that only a PHD researcher would be able to accurately calculate), then I'm not going to respond. Whataboutism is only an effective rhetorical device if your intentions are in bad-faith.
  - nate_meurer 3y ago
    > you think that I can't have an opinion about things without having zero emissions I neither said nor implied that, and in fact I'm saying the opposite. You absolutely have a right to your moralizing regardless of your GHG emissions. > I do think GHG heavy meat-consumption that is associated with climate change should be disincentivized just as much as I think GHG heavy fuel-consumption should be. Well thank God, I thought it was just me. FWIW I also have family members who are dogs, and I spent countless hours developing a vegetarian dog food recipe, and I spend countless more making the shit. I learned the AAFCO guidelines (which are woefully inadequate IMO), and made a spreadsheet to make sure my dogs get what they need from calcium to taurine. I, my wife, and my kids are all vegetarians, and my kids were horrifed to learn how many animals have to die to feed our pets. > Whataboutism is only an effective rhetorical device if your intentions are in bad-faith. If I were pointing out hypocrisy only to justify my own life choices, then that would qualify as whataboutism. But I assure you that's not the case. I personally find factory animal farming to be the nearly the most repugnant, immoral thing that humans do. But I also understand that not everyone wants to spend a chunk of their life making vegetarian dog food, so I'm not about to accuse you and your girlfriend of immorality if you make different choices.
    - scoofy 3y ago
      >I personally find factory animal farming to be the nearly the most repugnant, immoral thing that humans do. I certainly agree with you there. It's good to find some common ground. I think there are perfectly good reasons for you to hold moral views over my decisions. I do think that moralizing isn't effective, I just think that if we have a systemic problem, which I believe that GHG emissions is, than making it more painful to participate in that system is an effective way to stop people from accidentally participating. The entire point of this discussion is that the convenience and affordability of suburbia and sprawl is part of it's proliferation, and systematization (similar to consuming factory-farmed foods). It sensible for us, if we care about these issues, to want to change the convenience and affordability itself because they create path dependencies. You can very sensibly swap your automobiles' carbon footprint with a vegetarian lifestyle. The problem is that by being a stakeholder in the automobile-first system, it's important to be politically active in making that system less affordable and convenient to begin with. It's definitely possible to do, even with misaligned incentives (lord knows I've got some strange behaviors considering my views), but abstinence-only in a systemically broken system is merely a symbolic change. Edit: my girlfriend (who happens to be vegetarian) said "I would like to know more" about your vegetarian dog food. If you have a website or anything about it I will pass it along.